Freezing rain

ppragman

Direct Yeska
#44
In the scenario given, yes you are already flying. You have not been cleared for the approach but you can see the airport. We have nextrad on our equipment but it isn’t part of the scenario. METAR and ATIS are reporting FZRA tower says at this very moment it isn’t falling. Can you land?

I’m looking for specific regulation guidance if it exists. I don’t think you can land. I am told I got the question wrong and am trying to dispute it.
You’re in the Caravan what does the S1 supplement say?
 

gotWXdagain

Highly Visible Member
#46
If you can see the airport, can you see any precipitation falling? If your Nexrad isn’t painting anything, the tower reports it as not occurring, and you can visually confirm yourself it likely isn’t happening...
 

ppragman

Direct Yeska
#49
On page 12 of the S1 supplement (it might be a little different in the 675 caravan, all I've got on my computer at home is the EX version) you see the following SUPER BOLD bullet point:

The airplane must not depart or be flown into an airport where freezing rain or freezing drizzle conditions are being reported.
An ATIS saying, "light freezing rain" sounds like a "report" to me. I'd ask em' to change it on the ATIS before continuing in. Cessna doesn't trust pilots in the caravan to make the decision for themselves.
 

mikecweb

Third Generation Arizonan
#50
On page 12 of the S1 supplement (it might be a little different in the 675 caravan, all I've got on my computer at home is the EX version) you see the following SUPER BOLD bullet point:



An ATIS saying, "light freezing rain" sounds like a "report" to me. I'd ask em' to change it on the ATIS before continuing in. Cessna doesn't trust pilots in the caravan to make the decision for themselves.
A controller saying no FZRA sounds like a report to me too.
 

ppragman

Direct Yeska
#51
A controller saying no FZRA sounds like a report to me too.
What do you do in the case of conflicting reports I guess is the underlying question. You've made the very good point of, "when are they required to change it" - here's what Google provides:

http://tfmlearning.faa.gov/publications/atpubs/ATC/atc0209.html

Section 9. Automatic Terminal Information Service Procedures
2-9-1. APPLICATION
Use the ATIS, where available, to provide advance noncontrol airport/terminal area and meteorological information to aircraft.
a. Identify each ATIS message by a phonetic letter code word at both the beginning and the end of the message. Automated systems will have the phonetic letter code automatically appended. Exceptions may be made where omissions are required because of special programs or equipment.
1. Each alphabet letter phonetic word shall be used sequentially, except as authorized in subpara a2, beginning with “Alpha,” ending with “Zulu,” and repeated without regard to the beginning of a new day. Identify the first resumed broadcast message with “Alpha” or the first assigned alphabet letter word in the event of a broadcast interruption of more than 12 hours.
2. Specific sequential portions of the alphabet may be assigned between facilities or an arrival and departure ATIS when designated by a letter of agreement or facility directive.
REFERENCE-
FAAO JO 7210.3, Para 10-4-1, Automatic Terminal Information Service (ATIS).

b. The ATIS recording shall be reviewed for completeness, accuracy, speech rate, and proper enunciation before being transmitted.
c. Arrival and departure messages, when broadcast separately, need only contain information appropriate for that operation.
2-9-2. OPERATING PROCEDURES
Maintain an ATIS message that reflects the most current arrival and departure information.
a. Make a new recording when any of the following occur:
1. Upon receipt of any new official weather regardless of whether there is or is not a change in values.
2. When runway braking action reports are received that indicate runway braking is worse than that which is included in the current ATIS broadcast.
3. When there is a change in any other pertinent data, such as runway change, instrument approach in use, new or canceled NOTAMs/PIREPs/HIWAS update, etc.
b. When a pilot acknowledges that he/she has received the ATIS broadcast, controllers may omit those items contained in the broadcasts if they are current. Rapidly changing conditions will be issued by ATC, and the ATIS will contain the following:
EXAMPLE-
“Latest ceiling/visibility/altimeter/wind/(other conditions) will be issued by approach control/tower.”

c. Broadcast on all appropriate frequencies to advise aircraft of a change in the ATIS code/message.
d. Controllers shall ensure that pilots receive the most current pertinent information. Ask the pilot to confirm receipt of the current ATIS information if the pilot does not initially state the appropriate ATIS code. Controllers shall ensure that changes to pertinent operational information is provided after the initial confirmation of ATIS information is established. Issue the current weather, runway in use, approach information, and pertinent NOTAMs to pilots who are unable to receive the ATIS.
EXAMPLE-
“Verify you have information ALPHA.”

“Information BRAVO now current, visibility three miles.”

“Information CHARLIE now current, Ceiling 1500 Broken.”

“Information CHARLIE now current, advise when you have CHARLIE.”
 

ppragman

Direct Yeska
#53
I may not actually, to be honest, but I've gotten freezing rain in a 675SHP caravan and it was...less than fun. So maybe I'm super cautious about it in that airframe.

Now in a King Air or 1900? Absolutely - but @av8tr1 is a fedex feeder guy and I'm like 99.9% sure he's in the van.

Now TKS van...well, that changes the equation a little bit, but not a lot. 675 SHP van is a bummer.
 

av8tr1

"Never tell me the odds!"
#55
I may not actually, to be honest, but I've gotten freezing rain in a 675SHP caravan and it was...less than fun. So maybe I'm super cautious about it in that airframe.

Now in a King Air or 1900? Absolutely - but @av8tr1 is a fedex feeder guy and I'm like 99.9% sure he's in the van.

Now TKS van...well, that changes the equation a little bit, but not a lot. 675 SHP van is a bummer.
"Orly? What do the OpSpecs say?"
A010 is the opspec for anyone playing along at home.

I love this stuff (I'm such a nerd...)
On page 12 of the S1 supplement (it might be a little different in the 675 caravan, all I've got on my computer at home is the EX version) you see the following SUPER BOLD bullet point:



An ATIS saying, "light freezing rain" sounds like a "report" to me. I'd ask em' to change it on the ATIS before continuing in. Cessna doesn't trust pilots in the caravan to make the decision for themselves.
Pman!!! You da man! You may have just won me a prize and I owe you a beer or 2, or 12.

Yes to the Van. Yes to TKS. ATIS is reporting FZRA at the time. And repeats it every 5 mins FZRA for the period in question. I am not going in, not because the Van can't handle it but because in black and white it says I can't in the POH. If Mr. FAA is sitting at the end of the runway watching me land and the ATIS is reporting FZRA I have likely earned myself a fine and possible suspension. Regardless of what the tower says. If it is reporting FZRA and they are updating the ATIS every 5 minutes and it still says FZRA I am not landing period dot. If they can update the ATIS every 5 min then the tower should not be telling me "eh it isn't freezing rain right at this second, you are cleared to land".
 

ppragman

Direct Yeska
#56
Pman!!! You da man! You may have just won me a prize and I owe you a beer or 2, or 12.

Yes to the Van. Yes to TKS. ATIS is reporting FZRA at the time. And repeats it every 5 mins FZRA for the period in question. I am not going in, not because the Van can't handle it but because in black and white it says I can't in the POH. If Mr. FAA is sitting at the end of the runway watching me land and the ATIS is reporting FZRA I have likely earned myself a fine and possible suspension. Regardless of what the tower says. If it is reporting FZRA and they are updating the ATIS every 5 minutes and it still says FZRA I am not landing period dot. If they can update the ATIS every 5 min then the tower should not be telling me "eh it isn't freezing rain right at this second, you are cleared to land".
Although you'll notice in the guidance I linked, it said if conditions are changing rapidly that the ATIS should include information saying you're going to get an update when you check on.
 

deadstick

Well-Known Member
#57
What do you do in the case of conflicting reports I guess is the underlying question. You've made the very good point of, "when are they required to change it" - here's what Google provides:

http://tfmlearning.faa.gov/publications/atpubs/ATC/atc0209.html
1. “MANPADS alert. Exercise extreme caution. MANPADS threat reported by TSA, Chicago area.” “Advise on initial contact if you want to divert.”

2. “MANPADS alert. Exercise extreme caution. MANPADS attack observed by tower one-half mile northwest of airfield at one-two-five-zero Zulu.” “Advise on initial contact if you want to divert.”
To heck with all this FZRA chit chat. There’s some bad stuff going down on the south side at MDW.
 

mikecweb

Third Generation Arizonan
#60
So the ATIS is updated every 5 minutes but tower is saying something else? So basically this is an impossible hypothetical situation with zero reality. Glad we wasted a day and a half on it.
 
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