Flight Safety vs. Pan Am

jlo

New Member
How is Flight Safety's ASA program vs. Pan Am's Ace program? Flight Safety deals with ASA only, right? However, Pan Am has about 7 different regionals they deal with, right? Why would one choose Flight Safety over Pan Am, I know Flight Safety has a great reputation, but Pan Am seems to have the upper hand on the regional connection. Other than that, both programs are pretty similar, I have heard Pan Am has better facilities. What about the backlog on CFI's at Flight Safety, still backed up b/c of ASA not hiring?
Just curious for some info, I know Flight Safety is renowned for their work, but Pan Am appears to have the upper hand.
 

jlo

New Member
Well Flight Safety has a "buy a job" program as well, it just so happens that Pan Am appears to have 7 vs. FS' s 1 (ASA). To me it seems that every major school Comair, Sierra Academy, Pan Am, Flight Safety, etc., has a "buy a job program," they call it a bridge program and say they can get their qualified students interviews with these airlines. So what is the difference between Flight Safety and Pan Am specifically, but you can include the other schools as well. You did not really have a good answer to my question. I am not trying to insult you, but it is going to take more than that to convince me Flight Safety is better. I am enrolled at Pan Am, but have not started yet and I am more than willing to hear you out. I am also keeping my options open.

I will be honest, Pan Am sold me b/c of the 1st class facilities, fleet, bridge program (7 airlines), and there seems to be not as bad of a backlog on CFI's, which is the problem at Flight Safety right now, from what I read on the FS posts, due to ASA not hiring. Please respond. Thanks!
 

John_Doe

New Member
There is a back log of CFI's because of the state of the industry, not because of ASA. There are a lot more folks than ASA not hiring.

Have you considered that you might have a tough time getting scheduled if the demand for instructors at Pan Am so big?

Maybe you could go to Flight Safety and then instruct at Pan Am. It happens.
 

jlo

New Member
I realize that ASA is not hiring because of the industry, I was just using them as an example with Flight Safety. I was told that at Pan Am there were two airlines that started hiring again. I was just saying that if you have a program with 1 airline involved vs. a program with 7 different airlines, the program with 1 bridge might not be hiring, then you are screwed. If they have 7 airlines, well if 1 or 2 aren't hiring then you have 5 or 6 others to deal with.
However, good point about the scheduling with CFI's. I really want to make sure that I have a CFI available at all times, so I am not stuck sitting around waiting to fly!
Whatabout the fact that at Flight Safety, you do ground school for a certain amount of weeks and then fly 3 or 4 weeks later. I would rather fly and do ground together. Isn't that how it works at Flight Safety. Again, I know FS has the reputation, but why/how?
 

aviator

New Member
Hey Hova, I came out here from Denver as well. (Used to fly with Aspen at APA) A couple things, At FSI I did all my ground schools AND flew at the same time. You have the option as to what you personally want to do. The ASA program is pretty much on hold, do to the state of the industry. Historically instructors from FSI get hired on at a wide variety of regionals not just ASA. Not to downgrade your opinion of PAN AM I think it is also a quality school. However I'm not a big fan of any bridge programs. When the industry was red hot it worked for some people..now I consider it a cash cow for any school. My advice, get your instructor ratings, find a teaching slot, and try for as much multi time as you can get. This route while somewhat old fashioned is the best way to go at that moment. Spending thousands on accelerated bridge programs specific to companies that are not hiring is a risky venture at best.
Just my opinion I could be wrong!
 

jlo

New Member
Just got off the phone with Pan Am. I was comparing Flight Safety to Pan Am, the numbers. Flight Safety told me that you get 55 multi-engine time and 200 hrs. total time, up to commercial/instrument/multi. If you opt. to instruct with them, I was told that you stay for 800 hours, and approximately 400 hours of that is multi-engine time. That is great! Sounds very,very unrealistic, considering the enrollment I was quoted was like 350, right now. And they have 110 instructors?

Pan Am quoted me approx. 140 hours multi-engine time, of which 121 hours multi-engine time is PIC!!! That is just on the school side, not instruction side. Their bridge programs require 100 hours of multi-engine to get hired, and I was told that if you go your own route, airlines prefer more like 200 or so multi-engine hours. PIC I guess?

Isn't Flight Safety alot bigger? Aren't you more of a number there? I think I am still sticking with Pan Am. I do think these are the best two schools, based on what I hear and read in the discussion groups. These schools are like comparing apples to apples, which in most cases with other schools, it is like apples to oranges.

PS--Pan Am is cheaper! $24,000 for the instrument, commercial, multi. Flight Safety is $32,000 for the same ratings. I prefer quality as opposed to money, but when comparing apples to apples, cheaper is better! How is Florida compared to Denver?
 

jlo

New Member
I agree with you completely. I will have to go with my gut instinct, b/c you always have someone saying school (a) is great, school (b) is too expensive, and so on. But I have a week or two to decide if I am staying with my initial Pan Am decision or if I will go to "Harvard" (FS). I think both schools are great, and I like the idea of instructing, I think it looks great on a resume for time building. How hard is it to get hired as a CFI at Flight Safety? How long does it take to get the 800 hours? Is that 800 total hours or 800 CFI hours? Thanks for the info, I will keep weighing my options.
 

IFLYRJS

New Member
Hova, I hope you plan to come to florida and check out the school's first. To spend 30k plus and not spend a few hundred to look at the school's in person first in my opinion is not good planning. I know, who say's my opinion means anything right. I flew into orlando and looked at ATA and Comair on the first day, then drove to Vero and Ft. Pierce on the next day. I would just check out Pan AM and Flight Safety and skip the other two.
One bit of info for Pan Am is on 12-5-01 the city voted to restrict the times that training aircraft at ft.pierce can fly starting on 12-12-01. The local paper said the times would be 9-5 m-f, 9-2 sat and none on sunday. They also said maybe more to come. That will really hurt the schools at ft. pierce including pan am.
 

lancair1

New Member
If your goal is to compare apples to apples, you're going to need to do some more in-depth research.

I am half way through the program at FSI and have completely investigated the options that were available to me/and are available to you.

1. The program at Pan Am is only less expensive because you do your instrument in a single, not a twin.
2. Prices across the board are almost exactly parallel, though Pan Am is a few bucks cheaper on most items.
3. Pan Am's equipment and facilities are newer.
4. If you want to find opinions that count, talk to some captains in the airline industry who have been around. I know three well. Each said that Pan Am is a good name, but the school is unknown. In effect, each said that Flight Safety is the "Harvard" of flight schools.
5. ASA is gone for the near future. ExecJet is coming. This program at FSI allows you to either a) get your CIME, CFI, CFII, MEI and work for 800 hours, then go to Exec Jet or ASA. Or b) get your CIME, CFI, CFII, MEI and pay around $12k to go directly to Exec Jet w/o having to fly around these little planes for a year.
6. According to the last marketing rep at Pan Am that I spoke with, they DO NOT have any type of program that sends you directly to the big planes without having to instruct. Their program only "prepares" you to go after a year of instructing. Probably makes no real difference since you'll be getting into a big plane soon anyway.

When choosing a flight school, I took a ton of info into consideration. I spoke with everyone. Pilots, instructors, Delta and United Pilot recruiters, and many other people in the industry. The right decision became very clear to me. Flight Safety is the best. It is not the most expensive, and most likely a little too expensive, but when you leave your flight school and tell others where you trained (whether it's when you are showing your resume to a delta recruiter, or at a rinky dink fbo lounge) they will know that you trained at the best available to you.

Every discussion you will ever hear will be along these lines: I heard school a is cheaper than FSI. I heard school b is newer than FSI. I heard you get more multi engine hours at school be than at FSI. I heard school c has more airlines than FSI.

The resounding theme should have become apparent by now.. You either train at FSI or you don't. If you don't, you'll still most likely end up in the right seat next to me someday.

 

ERJ-135

New Member
I hope the readers of this message line do more than just read the posted messages. Choosing the proper flight school requires dedicated investigation and a tour for sure. You do not buy a pair of shoes with out trying them on , do you? When is the last time you bought a car without driving and kicking the tires. Please put forth the effort. It is not necessary for you to become a flight instructor before applying with the airlines. I know, there will be those out there that say you need the experience and time-build. Baloney!!! Ever hear of quality of training, not quantity of training. There are flight schools, not mentioned, that have direct track programs, bypassing the CFI requirements most flight school require. The regional airlines would not hire these pilots if they were not qualified. Besides, what makes you think that you will be able to get the FCI certificates in the first place. If you do go this far, what makes you think the school will hire you as a CFI. Ask some of the Conair Academy student pilots that got their CFI's, but were not hired because only a few CFI job openings were offered. It is the same at the other flight school mills. It is the old supply and demand economic reality. It amazes me that the FAA allows a new CFI to teach at the pilot mill academy's in the first place. With all the FAA regulations a school has to follow, why is it not required that a CFI has to have experience before teaching at these schools. It is the blind leading the blind. I write with experience. My instrument through CFI training was from one of the big flight schools. It was a world apart from the training I received at a local FBO. While at the big school, I demanded the experience and professional background from my instructors. I did not want to be taught by a freshman CFI. I went through 3 instructors before finding the right one during my instrument training. The ones that would not fly in IMC, were gone. I needed and demanded the experience in actual IMC. What this told me was, they were not confident in their ability to fly in IMC, but, they were teaching instruments. Now if this isn't a contradiction, I do not know what that is. You are a CFII, but you will not teach in actual IMC. What a joke, and this indicated lack of proper experience to me. You will be investing the big $$, so demand the level of experience you pay for. Why do the airlines require a high level of training and flight hours in their pilot applicants? Think about what I just wrote and only demand the best. Not all flight schools will fit your requirements. Check out as many as you can. Don't let time and money be your only requirement.

[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: ERJ-135 ]
 

jlo

New Member
I agree 100%, I need to try on the shoes to see how they fit. I am planning on doing this next week when I am done with my PPL. My plan is to go to Arizona and visit those schools first. However, I am going the CFI route. I have heard many people say it looks good on a resume, the best way to learn is to teach,and it is the old-fashioned hard work way to build hours. That is a personal opinion, everyone has the choice to do whatever it is that turns them on.
 

zsolez

New Member
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ERJ-135:
Ask some of the Conair Academy student pilots that got their CFI's, but were not hired because only a few CFI job openings were offered.[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: ERJ-135 ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ERJ-135,

Could you be a bit more specific? Did you talk to people who got not hired as a CFII at Comair? I have heard about 1 guy who hasn't been hired but that was due to him though I do not know details. So if you could help me out and specify your source since this is some relevant info for me.

Fact is both of my CFIIs will be gone by next year February for training with Comair (the airline) and I will have hard time to get an experienced CFII because we have mostly new ones around, and we are even short of those. So it doesn't make any sense to me what you wrote but if you are right than I would like to hear more because my #1 reason of being with CAA is that I have a good chance of getting hired as a CFII. And that to me is extremely important.

I appreciate your response.
 

Falcon262

Well-Known Member
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gofast:
.One bit of info for Pan Am is on 12-5-01 the city voted to restrict the times that training aircraft at ft.pierce can fly starting on 12-12-01. The local paper said the times would be 9-5 m-f, 9-2 sat and none on sunday. They also said maybe more to come. That will really hurt the schools at ft. pierce including pan am.[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Has the AOPA been notifed of this? I did not think a city council could enact a restriction like that without first consulting with the FAA. I read the article and it was so anti-aviation.

Chuck
PP-ASEL
 

lancair1

New Member
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ERJ-135:
Nice try Lancair1, and no I'm not one of the ATA owners or managers. Actually I'm pro Embry-Riddle. I use a different computer from time to time, therefore, I can use a different call sign. I can only guess that you know it all, now that you are a new student at FSI. That was quite a bold statement you made saying he will be flying in the right seat next to you some day. Better consentrate on more study time than web time. Knowledge is money in the bank if you use it properly. You will not learn that much surfing the internet. I can afford to because I'm already successful in my career and have time to spend. You on the other hand, are just beginning and need to take the training you are receiving as serious as you can. Some day it might save your life and the pax you are responsible for. The effort you apply will pay off in the end.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


ERJ-135,
Your assumptions are moronic and your attempt to label anyone who reads through aviation forums as not applying their time appropriately towards study is unfounded. There is a great deal of information pertinent to success in aviation that you will not find in any jepp book.

I am very happy for you though. To reach such a high point that you are able to offer your time schooling the future pilots of America.


Since it is a friday afternoon and my studying is nearly complete for the day, I thought I would take a look at your posts. It is quite interesting that you only posted once in the ERAU section considering you are so "Pro ERAU". I also thought the following posts from the ATA section were interesting. To find all of your posts, I entered your member # in the search criteria. You seem to be awfully defensive on ATA's behalf:

ERJ-135
Member
Member # 931
posted July 26, 2001 09:46 AM
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This message is for the junior member "TED": You got you information wrong in all three statements about ATA loosing the 141, ASA, and MESA. You are totatly wrong. Do your home work them let your fingers do the typing. First, go to another web site www.flightinfo.com and look at the message on page 8(message board) under the title of "Airline Training Academy (ATA)" from BEECH190, dated 07/20/2001.

ERJ-135
Member
Member # 931
posted November 03, 2001 06:31 AM
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Dudly Doright just admitted to the world that they can't read a contract, or did not pay attention to it prior to signing it. What a joke, Dudly, the case file states: "The case file cited below relates to a civil - not a criminal - investigation. The existance of an investigation does not constitute proof of any violation of law". In simple words for Dudly, it is just an investigation. Anybody can file allegations. It is yet to be proven factual, or the results would be listed also. Sounds like another poor excuse to get something for nothing. You are spoiled by retail business that freely give refunds, no questions asked. This is the big leagues, son, so learn from this mistake and move on.

ERJ-135
Member
Member # 931
posted November 13, 2001 05:20 AM
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Question for Dudly Doright and ERJ145: Did either of you attend ATA? What time frame were you there? Who was the Chief Flight Instructor/Chief Pilot during this time? Who is the Chief Pilot of AirStage II. What airplane do they use for initial multi-engine training? What airplane do they use for students that are in training for CFI Certificates. How long is Airstage I in months? How long is Airstage II in months? Who is the Chief Mechanic? What airport is the academy located at? What side of the airport is ATA located? Where are the AirStage II aircraft parked? Who is the Admissions Manager? What Training Coordinator did the initial enrollmet for you? What type of airplane is parked in front of the maim service hangars. What brand name aviation gas is used in the academy's airplanes? Answer these questions and you attended ATA. Do not answer the questions and you lose.

ERJ-135
Member
Member # 931
posted November 29, 2001 12:45 PM
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Captain Mark Brown is a good friend of mine and I talk with him on occasion. He has not visited ATA in the last 5 months. This is his words. Now, lets get back to you. Foot-in-mouth must have a hold of you with the statement of "furloughed pilots not called back because of bad attitudes". Don't listen to the rumors, for they will get you into more trouble than they are worth. It is a growing-up process that you obviously do not understand. Listen lots and talk less.


ERJ-135, You know as well as I do that if you are in fact pro ERAU to any extent it is only because ERAU does not have the same target market as ATA, FSI, PAN AM, ETC.

I have no problem with you, and other flight school execs posting their opinions, I would just appreciate you making it clear at the beginning of each post that your opinion is NOT subjective.

Well, back to studying.

 

**DONOTDELETE**

New Member
Whats really AMAZING is that everytime ERJ-135 gets knocked down he fails to respond as in my responses and questions. I answered ALL his questions, to the T and ALL correct. His response was I was incorrect on all so therefore he should know every answer to the questions asked. Yes, 135 does get very defensive on the subject of ATA which implies everything.
Lancair1, you should have posted all the responses too so everyone can decide and see how long 135 disappears this time. If everyone would read the posts they would see who he represents simply on the wording. The famous saying "do as I say, not as I do". 135, P.T. Barnum started a business along time ago based on one fact, you know what that is?
 

zsolez

New Member
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ERJ145:
Whats really AMAZING is that everytime ERJ-135 gets knocked down he fails to respond as in my responses and questions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. I have noticed the very same thing. I have no problem with ERJ-135 we have seen much tougher cases here and a few discussions lately.... those were not that pretty.

But still whenever ERJ-135 gets into a corner he will disappear, or at best have a general unspecific, response unrelated to the subject. I am starting to think he is/was a politician.

Defending your own school is all right as long you can stay factual, and you too believe in what you are trying to prove. But making bogus statements, offending or criticizing other institutions without real proof, or without your own personal experience... well that is what flips me over and that is when I can't go by without posting... because if something is BS than someone gotta say it. This forum helped me a lot. Lets try to help others too and cut the crap. If you have "heard" something, or you just "think" than indicate that in your post and no one will feel offended.
 

chunk75

Well-Known Member
Lancair1,

I agree with you that ERJ-135 is a weasel, however, you said that he must not be ERAU because he doesn't post there.

I am in the home stretch of my B.S. in Professional Aeronautics from ERAU, yet I never post in ERAU. I am a distance learning student, so most of the q's don't apply to me!?!?

Anyway, I'll see ya in Vero next year...

Chunk
 

lancair1

New Member
Chunk/others,

Yeah, that came across wrong. He may very well be from ERAU, I figure that he was using the "I support ERAU" as a fallback to display impartiality toward ATA.

I actually plan on picking up some knowledge from ERAU myself.



[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: lancair1 ]
 

lancair1

New Member
ERJ-135,

I have been seeing your posts for quite some time. Is it just me, or have you never said a good thing about any school other than ATA.

My guess is that you are one of ATA's owners. Am I right?
 
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