First female Viper Demo commander removed after just two weeks for 'loss of confidence' in her ability to lead.

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
Hate to burst your bubble, but I'd consider 9/11 to be a military defeat. Obviously, the national defense wasn't up to it.
The capability is there. But the politicos don't want to unleash it to its fullest effect. Speaking as someone who knows our capes.

If you're going to get involved in war, either unleash the hounds, or don't commit. But do not do things half assed because you want to look like some nice guy high road driver. The enemy doesn't give a rats ass about that, and neither should they. Or us for that matter.

That's the bubble bursting. From someone who experienced it, the frustration of it.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
Political and intelligence failure, sure I’d buy that, but military, how do you figure?
To me, one has to define what it is they are talking about subject-wise when they speak of military losing.

Losing because the strength and capabilities of the military were not allowed to be used to their fullest extent consistent with the type of war being fought? I can see that. But that's not a specific military failure.

Losing because there were pansy ass flag officers who would salute smartly and say nothing, knowing full well that the ROE the military was under, was a losing proposition that didn't allow the military to do what it needed to and always kept US forces at a disadvantage to the enemy, rather than an advantage? Yes, however that's a failure of military command, not necessarily the forces themselves being incapable.

Losing because we started in Afghanistan with two straightforward mission objectives: 1. destroy the Taliban and al queda forces that existed at the time operating in Afghanistan, and 2. Capture or kill Bin Laden. Two objectives that were clear, with pretty clear end states. But we shortly later allowed severe mission creep to occur to where we came up with the impossible idea of building up Afghanistan into some sort of functioning democracy or ad hoc 51st state of the union, which had no end state, and no possibility of success? Complete and utter political failure there, as well as failure of the aforementioned flag officers to put their careers on the line and call BS on this.


The military had the capes. But the political will to unleash literal hell, just wasn't there. And still isn't. Republican as well as Democrat, doesn't matter......neither has had the political will to win, and now both lack the political will to get us the hell out, if we aren't planning on any kind of success. Preferring to just keep our forces in some sort of purgatory in these craphole places.

Same thing with Vietnam. We could've won that war the first year in '65, had we taken out some key nodes in North Vietnam with our airpower, at a time when NVA defenses were rudimentary and few and far between. Instead we invoked the most restrictive ROE on ourselves seen to date, to where when we finally got serious about striking North Vietnam hard in '72, they now possessed the most effective and deadliest integrated air defense system in the world, next to the Soviets and China. And we paid the price for it, hard.

Take this stuff seriously Congress. Because unlike you inept morons, our enemies sure do. And they don't know the meaning of "half assing it".
 

JEP

Malko In Charge
Staff member
To me, one has to define what it is they are talking about subject-wise when they speak of military losing.

Losing because the strength and capabilities of the military were not allowed to be used to their fullest extent consistent with the type of war being fought? I can see that. But that's not a specific military failure.

Losing because there were pansy ass flag officers who would salute smartly and say nothing, knowing full well that the ROE the military was under, was a losing proposition that didn't allow the military to do what it needed to and always kept US forces at a disadvantage to the enemy, rather than an advantage? Yes, however that's a failure of military command, not necessarily the forces themselves being incapable.

Losing because we started in Afghanistan with two straightforward mission objectives: 1. destroy the Taliban and al queda forces that existed at the time operating in Afghanistan, and 2. Capture or kill Bin Laden. Two objectives that were clear, with pretty clear end states. But we shortly later allowed severe mission creep to occur to where we came up with the impossible idea of building up Afghanistan into some sort of functioning democracy or ad hoc 51st state of the union, which had no end state, and no possibility of success? Complete and utter political failure there, as well as failure of the aforementioned flag officers to put their careers on the line and call BS on this.


The military had the capes. But the political will to unleash literal hell, just wasn't there. And still isn't. Republican as well as Democrat, doesn't matter......neither has had the political will to win, and now both lack the political will to get us the hell out, if we aren't planning on any kind of success. Preferring to just keep our forces in some sort of purgatory in these craphole places.

Same thing with Vietnam. We could've won that war the first year in '65, had we taken out some key nodes in North Vietnam with our airpower, at a time when NVA defenses were rudimentary and few and far between. Instead we invoked the most restrictive ROE on ourselves seen to date, to where when we finally got serious about striking North Vietnam hard in '72, they now possessed the most effective and deadliest integrated air defense system in the world, next to the Soviets and China. And we paid the price for it, hard.

Take this stuff seriously Congress. Because unlike you inept morons, our enemies sure do. And they don't know the meaning of "half assing it".
From the Colonel that relieved her of her duties.....Great perspective.

 

SurferLucas

Southern Gentleman
From the Colonel that relieved her of her duties.....Great perspective.

I’m glad he contacted them and got to tell his story. That’s some great stuff he talks about.

Even if he did say “intial cadre” @Derg
 

JEP

Malko In Charge
Staff member
So what happened, what did she do?
The AF has done a pretty good job of squashing it and the public details are non-existent. Whatever it was must have occurred in a military setting on base or something like that. Anything that would have happened in the public sector would have been out there already.
 

Autothrust Blue

The frakkin’ CAG
The AF has done a pretty good job of squashing it and the public details are non-existent. Whatever it was must have occurred in a military setting on base or something like that. Anything that would have happened in the public sector would have been out there already.
Well...we’re waiting...
 

Cory Trevor

Well-Known Member
Pretty funny, I just checked my e-mail and today I had one explaining that on Thursday Southwest added the question "Have you ever received a commander directed downgrade" I guess they don't want this lady over there.
 

Autothrust Blue

The frakkin’ CAG
Pretty funny, I just checked my e-mail and today I had one explaining that on Thursday Southwest added the question "Have you ever received a commander directed downgrade" I guess they don't want this lady over there.
“What the f— is that...oh right, MIL...”
 

CFI A&P

Exploring the world one toilet at a time.
Pretty funny, I just checked my e-mail and today I had one explaining that on Thursday Southwest added the question "Have you ever received a commander directed downgrade" I guess they don't want this lady over there.
She was removed from flying status and placed in an admin capacity, right?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Hacker15e

Dunning–Kruger Observer
Pretty funny, I just checked my e-mail and today I had one explaining that on Thursday Southwest added the question "Have you ever received a commander directed downgrade" I guess they don't want this lady over there.
I can assure you that, just because someone answers "yes" to a question like that, it does not remove them from consideration from being hired. I answered "yes" to about 4 questions like that on my apps, and I got interview offers from all of the big 6 except UPS.

FWIW, a "commander-directed downgrade" is a different beast than what happened to Kotnik. It refers to a specific loss of a type of flying qualification, or having the characterization/grade of a checkride downgraded by a higher-level commander.
 

Hacker15e

Dunning–Kruger Observer
She was removed from flying status and placed in an admin capacity, right?
No, not removed from flight status. Just had her "desk job" reassigned to an admin gig while things shake out after being fired. Typical "career path" for fired Commanders. She will be assigned to a real desk job at some point in the future and move on with her AF flying career.
 
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