failed my instrument oral (SEL)

Vadim

Well-Known Member
topic explains it all.. aircraft is steam guages, no gps.. has dme.. suffix A/

flight examiner asked me how to get ground speed on take off.. i cant use e6b, cant ask ATC (because they dont have time for that).. and cant use dme for gs departing KHVN (no vor there).. none of the instructors can come up with a way..

another question; planned a IFR flight KROC to KHVN, weather is VFR clear everywhere, used KBDR as alernate.. he didnt like it! because it doesnt have weather reporting? thats exactly what he said.. to me it looks like it has TAF.. other instructors told me you can even use an airport with no approach, as long as its VFR..

im out of $, out of options and out of time.. not easy to pay for training and work full time supporting new family.. idk what to do but if i cant come up with these 2 answers, ill fail the next oral..

another question, how do i calculate gs with out asking atc, cant use dme (tells u gs after you tune in vor freq) on climb out? cant use e6b.. he said, oh well winds can change on climb out? how do i get gs? its steam guage aircraft N1126U..

and he marked that i didnt know what sensitive altimeter was... my bad; theres just soo much stuff here and i never seen the older altimeter at rochester air center here..

long story short, oral was 2.5hrs and didnt get a chance to start the engine.. he scheduled another checkride 3 weeks from now, none instructors who were airline pilots can help me with these 2 major questions that i know ill fail my oral again.. he was BIG on these, just these 2 questions we were stuck at 20 mins a piece... man i went home feeling like my vains in my brain gonna explode.. i never felt that before until yesterday ... and when your tired and know you failed, you are so confused you cant even answer anything else normally anymore..

i still love what i do, and will never love anything else, maybe i am a dangerous pilot in his eyes, but ill continue to learn and not gonna give up.. and MAN!!!! the poh was in the aircraft.. i didnt have a badge to get it from aircraft at 6pm.. nether did the examiner..
 

flyinggreasemnky

Well-Known Member
Everyone in their career has some sort of setback. How you handle recovering from it says a lot about your character. Just know you have to own the failure even though that probably seems tough right now. I've been there and know what you are going through. Failed my instrument checkride flight portion.

As for figuring out groundspeed in /A airplanes: If you know a set distance on an airway between two points (such as 2 VORs), you can just time how long it takes for you to fly that distance. If it takes you 20 min to fly between the VORs that are 40 nm apart, your groundspeed is 120 knots.
 

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
topic explains it all.. aircraft is steam guages, no gps.. has dme.. suffix A/

flight examiner asked me how to get ground speed on take off.. i cant use e6b, cant ask ATC (because they dont have time for that).. and cant use dme for gs departing KHVN (no vor there).. none of the instructors can come up with a way..
Was that the entire question? "How do you get ground speed on takeoff?"

The simple answer is 'this is why we start the clock before takeoff, so that when we cross a known fixed point we can figure out our groundspeed - and thus know if our winds are accurate - right away.

But that's an odd question for an IFR checkride, in my opinion. Right after takeoff, you're concerned with flying your correct procedure, getting to proper altitude, contacting departure, running the appropriate checklist.

It's a decent question IN GENERAL, I'm just curious about why he'd put it in that context. Dunno. I'm not a -II yet.

another question; planned a IFR flight KROC to KHVN, weather is VFR clear everywhere, used KBDR as alernate.. he didnt like it! because it doesnt have weather reporting? thats exactly what he said.. to me it looks like it has TAF.. other instructors told me you can even use an airport with no approach, as long as its VFR..
The way you state this - was the actual weather VFR clear, or did he give you a planned XC flight and you were pretending it was IFR, or was he asking the question as if it was IFR conditions? Point being - I'm guessing he's asking about your decisionmaking process.

But I'm surprised....by weather reporting, you mean an actual weather observer? Because KBDR has ASOS.

another question, how do i calculate gs with out asking atc, cant use dme (tells u gs after you tune in vor freq) on climb out? cant use e6b.. he said, oh well winds can change on climb out? how do i get gs? its steam guage aircraft N1126U..
Basic math, like the other guy said. If you know where a fixed point is, and you know WHEN you pass over it, then you can get a ground speed.

Good rules of thumb when flying piston singles: 60 kts = 1nm per minute. 90kts = 1.5 nm per minute. 120kts = 2 nm per minute. You're going to be somewhere in those ranges most of the time.

long story short, oral was 2.5hrs and didnt get a chance to start the engine.. he scheduled another checkride 3 weeks from now, none instructors who were airline pilots can help me with these 2 major questions that i know ill fail my oral again.. he was BIG on these, just these 2 questions we were stuck at 20 mins a piece... man i went home feeling like my vains in my brain gonna explode.. i never felt that before until yesterday ... and when your tired and know you failed, you are so confused you cant even answer anything else normally anymore..

i still love what i do, and will never love anything else, maybe i am a dangerous pilot in his eyes, but ill continue to learn and not gonna give up.. and MAN!!!! the poh was in the aircraft.. i didnt have a badge to get it from aircraft at 6pm.. nether did the examiner..
It's natural to feel a lot of negative feelings at this point. The crucial point is now how you deal with it. You take a deep breath and try to relax, and focus on doing better. It really is that simple. Talk it over with your instructor. Chair fly. It sucks - I have a failed CR myself and it was for a boneheaded mistake I made. Fixed it and passed. It's fine, and you'll be fine with the right attitude. Promise.
 

Vadim

Well-Known Member
he clearly told me, 500 feet above airport elevation when im runway heading after takeoff .. how do i know my ground speed? no vor at airport (khvn) and he told me to plan xc based on todays weather which was all clear on day of check ride.. nothing but sunny, i also mentioned that about 60kts will give me about a mile.. and he said its just a guess, he needs me to figure it out on takeoff (thats airspeed not gs he said) right after departure.. and he clearly told me that alternate needs weather reporting which mine did to my knowledge (kbdr).. but its vfr weather 10sm with 100@3kts 250SCT.. i dont need alternate, he also didnt like the 1,2,3 rule, 1hr before.. 1hr after... not even the precision approach/none-precision approach minimums at alternate which is 800 and 2 miles or 600 at 2 miles for none-precision approach.. wouldnt buy that..
 

milleR

Well-Known Member
he clearly told me, 500 feet above airport elevation when im runway heading after takeoff .. how do i know my ground speed? no vor at airport (khvn) and he told me to plan xc based on todays weather which was all clear on day of check ride.. nothing but sunny, i also mentioned that about 60kts will give me about a mile.. and he said its just a guess, he needs me to figure it out on takeoff (thats airspeed not gs he said) right after departure.. and he clearly told me that alternate needs weather reporting which mine did to my knowledge (kbdr).. but its vfr weather 10sm with 100@3kts 250SCT.. i dont need alternate, he also didnt like the 1,2,3 rule, 1hr before.. 1hr after... not even the precision approach/none-precision approach minimums at alternate which is 800 and 2 miles or 600 at 2 miles for none-precision approach.. wouldnt buy that..
He “didn’t like” the 1,2,3 rule? Did you direct him to 91.169?
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
he clearly told me, 500 feet above airport elevation when im runway heading after takeoff .. how do i know my ground speed? no vor at airport (khvn) and he told me to plan xc based on todays weather which was all clear on day of check ride.. nothing but sunny, i also mentioned that about 60kts will give me about a mile.. and he said its just a guess, he needs me to figure it out on takeoff (thats airspeed not gs he said) right after departure.. and he clearly told me that alternate needs weather reporting which mine did to my knowledge (kbdr).. but its vfr weather 10sm with 100@3kts 250SCT.. i dont need alternate, he also didnt like the 1,2,3 rule, 1hr before.. 1hr after... not even the precision approach/none-precision approach minimums at alternate which is 800 and 2 miles or 600 at 2 miles for none-precision approach.. wouldnt buy that..
There's clearly something wrong with this checkride. But based on one side of the story, without being there, no way to tell what it is.

He “didn’t like” the 1,2,3 rule? Did you direct him to 91.169?
This is an example why I'm convinced there is something else going on here. "I don't like the 1-2-3 rule" does not compute.

just these 2 questions we were stuck at 20 mins a piece
Makes no sense.
 
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DE727UPS

Well-Known Member
I used to use an examiner who was really old school back in the 80's and 90's. He was really a great guy buy had his pet peeve questions. It was good to be briefed on that ahead of time. One thing he would do is leave his seatbelt unbuckled and see if you noticed. He told me once he'd fail you if you didn't catch that. Never heard of it actually happening. I'd ask your instructors if they can get some intel on the guy about what he's looking for on those questions. Maybe ask someone who has done the checkride before with him.
 

Inverted25

Well-Known Member
If you truly feel the examiner was unreasonable report to FAA. At my old job years ago we got a DPE rights revoked and a few checkrides removed from students records after multiple unjustified failures.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
he clearly told me, 500 feet above airport elevation when im runway heading after takeoff .. how do i know my ground speed? no vor at airport (khvn) and he told me to plan xc based on todays weather which was all clear on day of check ride.. nothing but sunny, i also mentioned that about 60kts will give me about a mile.. and he said its just a guess, he needs me to figure it out on takeoff (thats airspeed not gs he said) right after departure.. and he clearly told me that alternate needs weather reporting which mine did to my knowledge (kbdr).. but its vfr weather 10sm with 100@3kts 250SCT.. i dont need alternate, he also didnt like the 1,2,3 rule, 1hr before.. 1hr after... not even the precision approach/none-precision approach minimums at alternate which is 800 and 2 miles or 600 at 2 miles for none-precision approach.. wouldnt buy that..
Ok. If he's really asking that specifically, the only way I would know to get a GS is to note how far down the runway we rotate, then time it to the end of the runway. That's a fixed length that you can then use the elapsed time from rotation to the of the runway to figure groundspeed without GPS. Distance = rate x time. There's no getting around that, and that's what the FAA teaches. You have to have at least two of those to derive the third.

It's also a BS question. Figuring out your groundspeed right after takeoff is a stupid thing to be worried about at that phase of the flight. Maybe that's what he wants you to say? I dunno.

On the weather - this is clearly and unequivocally spelled out in 91.169 as @milleR noted.

I'd be very interested at this point to know both what your instructor says, and what your joint plan of action will be going forward.
 
he clearly told me, 500 feet above airport elevation when im runway heading after takeoff .. how do i know my ground speed? no vor at airport (khvn) and he told me to plan xc based on todays weather which was all clear on day of check ride.. nothing but sunny, i also mentioned that about 60kts will give me about a mile.. and he said its just a guess, he needs me to figure it out on takeoff (thats airspeed not gs he said) right after departure.. and he clearly told me that alternate needs weather reporting which mine did to my knowledge (kbdr).. but its vfr weather 10sm with 100@3kts 250SCT.. i dont need alternate, he also didnt like the 1,2,3 rule, 1hr before.. 1hr after... not even the precision approach/none-precision approach minimums at alternate which is 800 and 2 miles or 600 at 2 miles for none-precision approach.. wouldnt buy that..
600/2 for precision appch. 800/2 for non-precision appch.
 

Vadim

Well-Known Member
600/2 for precision appch. 800/2 for non-precision appch.
———————————-
he didnt buy that.. man i paid $460 for exam and didnt get to start my engine.. my instructor is stunned that my examiner asked me about sensitive altimeter (i didnt know what that was) and questions like, whats the difference between VOR and Vortac... i didnt know either but i know we can use Vortac even doe i never used it (not around my area).. i told all my people; some are airline pilots, instrument single engine.. they all ask me questions (oral prep) and man i answer everything like a tank drives over chips.. im stunned i failed oral... paid $460 for exam and didnt get to start the engine .. but its ok, im honestly in fog right now.. dont know whats going on... i like my CFII but im gonna go for a oral and mock checkride with different CFII just to see where im at before i schedule another checkride...

and i lost my instrument endorsement (obviously because i failed check ride oral) and the examiner scheduled a checkride 3 weeks from now? im so pissed off..that dude will see some middle fingers for sure when i see him.

but i know im not going for a checkride he scheduled, ill use a different examiner.... i know i can blaim myself.. but WHY be stuck for 20 mins on getting GS if plane has no GPS, and i cant use ATC because apparently as of june 7 2019 ATC does not give out ground speed.. something very new to me.. and cant use VOR not even e6b in a steam guage airplane to get GS and none of my 3 CFIIs know the answer to that.

maan my private pilot oral was 15 mins long!!!! i answered everything like i should, completed the checkride in .6hrs, checkride was SO easy! i should of did this at American Flyers... very fair school (as of 2013)

can anyone tell me whats wrong with KBDR as alternate? he did not like that because it doesnt report weather (according to examiner)... well it does have ASOS and TAF reports.. weather was 250SCT 10sm.. plan for todays (checkrides day) weather.. so i did.. all VFR weather, i dont even need alternate..
 
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600/2 for precision appch. 800/2 for non-precision appch.
———————————-
he didnt buy that.. man i paid $460 for exam and didnt get to start my engine.. my instructor is stunned that my examiner asked me about sensitive altimeter (i didnt know what that was) and questions like, whats the difference between VOR and Vortac... i didnt know either but i know we can use Vortac even doe i never used it (not around my area).. i told all my people; some are airline pilots, instrument single engine.. they all ask me questions (oral prep) and man i answer everything like a tank drives over chips.. im stunned i failed oral... paid $460 for exam and didnt get to start the engine .. but its ok, im honestly in fog right now.. dont know whats going on... i like my CFII but im gonna go for a oral and mock checkride with different CFII just to see where im at before i schedule another checkride...

and i lost my instrument endorsement (obviously because i failed check ride oral) and the examiner scheduled a checkride 3 weeks from now? im so pissed off..

im a great kid but that dude gonna see some middle fingers when i see him.. im not sure if i should do that or not.. but i know im not going for a checkride he scheduled, ill use a different examiner....

maan my private pilot oral was 15 mins long!!!! i answered everything like i should, completed the checkride in .6hrs, checkride was SO easy! i should of did this at American Flyers... very fair school (as of 2013)

can anyone tell me whats wrong with KBDR as alternate? he did not like that because it doesnt report weather (according to examiner)... well it does have ASOS and TAF reports.. weather was 250SCT 10sm.. plan for todays (checkrides day) weather.. so i did.. all VFR weather, i dont even need alternate..
I'm right behind you bro. My instrument ride is hopefully at the end of this month or early next month. I have a mock checkride with my CFII this Friday. Failing my checkride especially on my oral is seriously stressin' me out. But, I'm just pushing though my fears and want to get this over with already.

Difference between a VOR and VORTAC? A VORTAC has TACAN which is what the military uses for navigation. You can tell the difference between a VOR and a VORTAC on a chart, by the three black tics on all three sides of a VORTAC.

I think that you should pay heed to the advice given to you in this thread and check the attitude. Definitely wouldn't give the guy two middle fingers high. Suck it up. Learn from this lesson and get better from it and don't blame the DPE, even if he might be wrong. It's like fighting with your wife or girlfriend. You're always wrong, even when you're right. Or so I hear. I have no experience with that. Lastly, $460.00 is a steal. It's $600.00 here in for checkrides in Utah.
 
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Vadim

Well-Known Member
believe me, i told him “thats a vortac, thats a vor”.. and he said whats the difference, i did say “vortac is for military also”.. he didnt buy ANYTHING i told him..
 
believe me, i told him “thats a vortac, thats a vor”.. and he said whats the difference, i did say “vortac is for military also”.. he didnt buy ANYTHING i told him..
Bro, we just finished watching Stranger Things: Season 2 here at work. But this thread, man. It just keeps getting stranger every time that you post. If what you're sayin' is true. Man, I got no clue what is going on with that DPE.
 

Vadim

Well-Known Member
but before i can actually really blame the examiner for being a hard @$$ on me, im gonna go for another oral and mock checkride with a different CFII, see where im at.. maybe i do need to work on somethings in the knowledge area.. but man this oral did not go well.
 

T/O w/FSII

Well-Known Member
600/2 for precision appch. 800/2 for non-precision appch.
———————————-
he didnt buy that.. man i paid $460 for exam and didnt get to start my engine.. my instructor is stunned that my examiner asked me about sensitive altimeter (i didnt know what that was) and questions like, whats the difference between VOR and Vortac... i didnt know either but i know we can use Vortac even doe i never used it (not around my area).. i told all my people; some are airline pilots, instrument single engine.. they all ask me questions (oral prep) and man i answer everything like a tank drives over chips.. im stunned i failed oral... paid $460 for exam and didnt get to start the engine .. but its ok, im honestly in fog right now.. dont know whats going on... i like my CFII but im gonna go for a oral and mock checkride with different CFII just to see where im at before i schedule another checkride...

and i lost my instrument endorsement (obviously because i failed check ride oral) and the examiner scheduled a checkride 3 weeks from now? im so pissed off..that dude will see some middle fingers for sure when i see him.

but i know im not going for a checkride he scheduled, ill use a different examiner.... i know i can blaim myself.. but WHY be stuck for 20 mins on getting GS if plane has no GPS, and i cant use ATC because apparently as of june 7 2019 ATC does not give out ground speed.. something very new to me.. and cant use VOR not even e6b in a steam guage airplane to get GS and none of my 3 CFIIs know the answer to that.

maan my private pilot oral was 15 mins long!!!! i answered everything like i should, completed the checkride in .6hrs, checkride was SO easy! i should of did this at American Flyers... very fair school (as of 2013)

can anyone tell me whats wrong with KBDR as alternate? he did not like that because it doesnt report weather (according to examiner)... well it does have ASOS and TAF reports.. weather was 250SCT 10sm.. plan for todays (checkrides day) weather.. so i did.. all VFR weather, i dont even need alternate..
This makes a lot more sense now.

Two things happened here. You have false expectations due to a too easy and too fast check-ride for your private. Most likely you are underprepared.

And a language barrier of some sort.
 

milleR

Well-Known Member
600/2 for precision appch. 800/2 for non-precision appch.
———————————-
he didnt buy that.. man i paid $460 for exam and didnt get to start my engine.. my instructor is stunned that my examiner asked me about sensitive altimeter (i didnt know what that was) and questions like, whats the difference between VOR and Vortac... i didnt know either but i know we can use Vortac even doe i never used it (not around my area).. i told all my people; some are airline pilots, instrument single engine.. they all ask me questions (oral prep) and man i answer everything like a tank drives over chips.. im stunned i failed oral... paid $460 for exam and didnt get to start the engine .. but its ok, im honestly in fog right now.. dont know whats going on... i like my CFII but im gonna go for a oral and mock checkride with different CFII just to see where im at before i schedule another checkride...

and i lost my instrument endorsement (obviously because i failed check ride oral) and the examiner scheduled a checkride 3 weeks from now? im so pissed off..that dude will see some middle fingers for sure when i see him.

but i know im not going for a checkride he scheduled, ill use a different examiner.... i know i can blaim myself.. but WHY be stuck for 20 mins on getting GS if plane has no GPS, and i cant use ATC because apparently as of june 7 2019 ATC does not give out ground speed.. something very new to me.. and cant use VOR not even e6b in a steam guage airplane to get GS and none of my 3 CFIIs know the answer to that.

maan my private pilot oral was 15 mins long!!!! i answered everything like i should, completed the checkride in .6hrs, checkride was SO easy! i should of did this at American Flyers... very fair school (as of 2013)

can anyone tell me whats wrong with KBDR as alternate? he did not like that because it doesnt report weather (according to examiner)... well it does have ASOS and TAF reports.. weather was 250SCT 10sm.. plan for todays (checkrides day) weather.. so i did.. all VFR weather, i dont even need alternate..
You’ve said twice now that he “didn’t buy” 91.169. Did you have a FAR/AIM with you (you should have) and do you know the regs well enough to direct him there (you need to)?

Also, it’s a checkride. You should have planned your flight like the weather was at minimums and included an alternate with the weather printed out. While I still don’t understand the ground speed question, this is really starting to sound like you walked in pretty unprepared I’m afraid.
 

jmc4

Well-Known Member
It’s really hard to say what could have happened but the DPE could have been searching for the limits of your knowledge.

Maybe you did know a lot of things off the top of your head but he might have been asking to you these questions to see how you would go about figuring things out that you don’t know off the top of your head.

The 600/2 and 800/2 are correct but he might have wanted to see where you find those minimums in the regulations.

The sensitive altimeter question might have been the same. Know where to look stuff up, it’s impossible to know everything, know as much as you can and know where to find things from their FAA sources.

You’d be surprised how many times I’ve had something down cold before a oral exam, only to show up and be completely unsure of myself when asked during the oral. Most DPEs can recognize that as the oral goes on. Some will let you look it up and others will have you talk about how you would come up with the answer and make your best guess. Typically if your reasoning is correct you will find the correct answer, and as long as you aren’t having to do this for every question asked, the checkride continues.

You’re going to be an instrument pilot soon and the airplane flying handbook and pilots handbook of aeronautical knowledge have (or had) a good breakdown of your sensitive altimeter. My instructor had me draw it out while explaining how it works.

We all face challenges along the way in aviation. If this is really what you want to do you have to look yourself in the mirror and take it on the chin. Don’t try and blame the examiner even if it really is his fault. Turn this negative into a positive and learn from it and you will have a better time explaining it (if you ever even need to) in an interview.

You got this.
 
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