Endorsement Questions

JordanD

Honorary Member
Bear with me on all these CFI questions :p
I was curious about the process of picking up students from another CFI. A slight bit confused on how the endorsements work. Say the student still has a valid certificate and logbook (90 day endorsement) from the previous CFI, can they still solo on the other CFI's endorsement until it expires? Is their initial certificate endorsement still good, or do I need to cover all the maneuvers with them and give them one myself? And before I sign it for an additional 90 days, I would need to perform the required instruction with them, correct?

Also, a question in my oral exam book came up that said that I can endorse a student for a particular solo cross country without having provided the cross country training, given that I ensure the conditions of 61.93 (d) are met. However, 61.87 (o)(1) says that no instructor may authorize a solo flight unless the instructor has given them training in the make/model to be flown. Some of the other ones confuse me, because they make it sound like that is the case, or you can ensure that they have a valid solo endorsement from another CFI.

Regardless of the answer, what is the most prudent way to go about it? I'd hate to send someone out with a fresh solo endorsement from another CFI without verifying their abilites myself, but at the same time I would hate for them to repeat training they've already done for my sake if the FARs don't necessarily require it.

Thanks! Hopefully the questions are clear enough.
 

Acrofox

All fox
Bear with me on all these CFI questions :p
I was curious about the process of picking up students from another CFI. A slight bit confused on how the endorsements work. Say the student still has a valid certificate and logbook (90 day endorsement) from the previous CFI, can they still solo on the other CFI's endorsement until it expires? Is their initial certificate endorsement still good, or do I need to cover all the maneuvers with them and give them one myself? And before I sign it for an additional 90 days, I would need to perform the required instruction with them, correct?
First, I'm a CFI student and not a CFI, so the following is just my understanding and you shouldn't take it to the bank.

If the student has a valid certificate and logbook endorsement... then he has a valid certificate and logbook endorsement and meets the criteria for solo flight. There's no official "change of CFI" procedure, and flying with another CFI doesn't invalidate the first's endorsements (Unless the endorsements are somehow written to exclude that, but ... that gets complicated)

Also, a question in my oral exam book came up that said that I can endorse a student for a particular solo cross country without having provided the cross country training, given that I ensure the conditions of 61.93 (d) are met. However, 61.87 (o)(1) says that no instructor may authorize a solo flight unless the instructor has given them training in the make/model to be flown.
(I think you want 61.87 (n) (1))
Endorsing a student "for solo flight" is under the criteria of the above. You're endorsing a student to make solo flights in that make/model of aircraft, and signing him off accordingly. Endorsing a student for a particular solo cross-country is
merely an indication that you've reviewed the conditions of said cross-country and preflight preparations and found them adequate.

Some of the other ones confuse me, because they make it sound like that is the case, or you can ensure that they have a valid solo endorsement from another CFI.
In either case, they must have a valid solo endorsement from a CFI who has flown with them in the make and model of aircraft to be flown and found them proficient.

Regardless of the answer, what is the most prudent way to go about it? I'd hate to send someone out with a fresh solo endorsement from another CFI without verifying their abilites myself, but at the same time I would hate for them to repeat training they've already done for my sake if the FARs don't necessarily require it.
You're not endorsing them for solo flight if you're signing them off for a cross-country... you're simply signing off on their preflight preparation as per 61.93(d).

Thanks! Hopefully the questions are clear enough.
Basically, you REALLY want to read 61.93(c)(2)(ii) and the whole of 61.93(d) ... and just to be on the safe side, make sure you understand the implications of "authorized instructor".

Hopefully my answers are right! ~.^

~Fox
 

rframe

pǝʇɹǝʌuı
Regardless of the answer, what is the most prudent way to go about it?
Dont have time to answer the others right now, but my FAA inspector said something like this and it stuck with me:

"You are now far more responsible for determining who gets to fly in the air around here than I am. The public puts their trust in the FAA and we put this trust and burden on you, but remember you have zero obligation to sign off anybody. Dont put your name, reputation, or flying career on the line for anybody unless you trust them and that includes both their flying skills AND their maturity and morality. If you dont trust them, dont put your name in their book".

Seems like pretty wise advise to me.
 

JordanD

Honorary Member
Thanks guys. I'm a CFI student as well so all the FARs and covering all my bases is a little daunting at the moment.
 

JordanD

Honorary Member
Another thing I was wondering about was BFRs. It says not to make a record of unsatisfactory performance but to log recommendations on what they need to work on. So... Does this mean if you find their performance unsatisfactory you basically tell them to work on those things and come back and try again? Seems a little weird considering either you think they're competent to act as PIC for another two years or not.
 

crazyjaydawg

Well-Known Member
Another thing I was wondering about was BFRs. It says not to make a record of unsatisfactory performance but to log recommendations on what they need to work on. So... Does this mean if you find their performance unsatisfactory you basically tell them to work on those things and come back and try again? Seems a little weird considering either you think they're competent to act as PIC for another two years or not.
Yeah, just make a note in remarks about areas of improvement but don't endorse them. Like it was mentioned before, don't sign it if you don't feel comfortable.

It kinda sucks, but if that guy screws up 729 days after you sign him off they will come knocking on your door.

Hell derg has stories of his korean students screwing up in a 747 and he had to answer to the faa 10 years after he flew with them.
 

drunkenbeagle

Gang Member
Another thing I was wondering about was BFRs. It says not to make a record of unsatisfactory performance but to log recommendations on what they need to work on. So...
That's more for your protection. The idea being, if you sign someone off for a BFR. Two years later they have an expensive accident. Lawyers sue you and subpoena your training records. If they find anything written down that is in any way negative, they'll argue that was the cause of whatever accident, and you were at fault for not doing enough remedial training in that area.

Simple way to avoid that scenario - if you aren't happy with something, simply write "in progress" for any tasks you think the student needs to work on.
 

Mike H

Well-Known Member
Or just write what was done on the flight(s) in the logbook without writing any "need to improve on..." remarks. Then verbally tell the pilot what needs to improve on the next flight before you'll sign off on a flight review.
 

Douglas

Old School KSUX
Another thing I was wondering about was BFRs. It says not to make a record of unsatisfactory performance but to log recommendations on what they need to work on. So... Does this mean if you find their performance unsatisfactory you basically tell them to work on those things and come back and try again? Seems a little weird considering either you think they're competent to act as PIC for another two years or not.
Right, then it is just a flight lesson with a note of things to work on next time. When they successfully complete the BFR, then I'd endorse them and not add any recommendations.
 

Douglas

Old School KSUX
Bear with me on all these CFI questions :p
I was curious about the process of picking up students from another CFI. A slight bit confused on how the endorsements work. Say the student still has a valid certificate and logbook (90 day endorsement) from the previous CFI, can they still solo on the other CFI's endorsement until it expires? Is their initial certificate endorsement still good, or do I need to cover all the maneuvers with them and give them one myself? And before I sign it for an additional 90 days, I would need to perform the required instruction with them, correct?
Good to go on previous instructors signature. When the 90 days comes up, ask him why he doesn't have his certificate yet, and then scowl at him, and if he is proficient to to be flying solo anyway, you can knock out that requirement in one one-hour flight lesson.
Also, a question in my oral exam book came up that said that I can endorse a student for a particular solo cross country without having provided the cross country training, given that I ensure the conditions of 61.93 (d) are met. However, 61.87 (o)(1) says that no instructor may authorize a solo flight unless the instructor has given them training in the make/model to be flown. Some of the other ones confuse me, because they make it sound like that is the case, or you can ensure that they have a valid solo endorsement from another CFI.
Good job trying to correlate the FARs and think about it a little deeper.
You are not authorizing him for solo flight, you are authorizing him for x-c. Solo flight would be a different endorsement and then would fall back on 61.87(what)(not)

Regardless of the answer, what is the most prudent way to go about it? I'd hate to send someone out with a fresh solo endorsement from another CFI without verifying their abilites myself, but at the same time I would hate for them to repeat training they've already done for my sake if the FARs don't necessarily require it.

Thanks! Hopefully the questions are clear enough.
 

JordanD

Honorary Member
This definitely helps to clear up a few things. Thanks guys.

One thing I was wondering.... do the feds expect you to rattle off the paragraph number of these regs? I can memorize what 61.87 covers, 61.103, 105, 107, and 107, etc, but (e) and (d) and all those parts always evade me.
 

rframe

pǝʇɹǝʌuı
This definitely helps to clear up a few things. Thanks guys.

One thing I was wondering.... do the feds expect you to rattle off the paragraph number of these regs? I can memorize what 61.87 covers, 61.103, 105, 107, and 107, etc, but (e) and (d) and all those parts always evade me.
No you dont need to know every paragraph reference, just know the major references for the things you'll be doing with your certificate - student pilot requirements are ____, private pilot experience requirements are____, flight review requirements are ______, etc.. the more "big" areas you know how to get to quickly the better, but also just know how to find things. Then have your FAR/AIM reference well indexed and marked up and know how to get places quickly. They want to know that you know where things are and how to get to them quickly, showing that you have spent plenty of time in the regs, know what they say, and know how to reference them.
 

drunkenbeagle

Gang Member
One thing I was wondering.... do the feds expect you to rattle off the paragraph number of these regs? I can memorize what 61.87 covers, 61.103, 105, 107, and 107, etc, but (e) and (d) and all those parts always evade me.
The paragraph number for the most important ones you pretty much should know. Otherwise, knowing where to find it is enough.

Pretty much everything that sites the FARs in 61-65E you probably want to memorize too.
 

Hammertime

Well-Known Member
This definitely helps to clear up a few things. Thanks guys.

One thing I was wondering.... do the feds expect you to rattle off the paragraph number of these regs? I can memorize what 61.87 covers, 61.103, 105, 107, and 107, etc, but (e) and (d) and all those parts always evade me.
It helps to know the rhyme and reason behind chapter and verse... In Pt 61 Private certification is covered in the 100s. Aeronautical Experience is 61.109 Commercial is the 120s. Aeronautical Experience is 61.129. ATP is the 150s. Aeronautical Experience is 61.159. You get the idea...
 

Acrofox

All fox
It helps to know the rhyme and reason behind chapter and verse... In Pt 61 Private certification is covered in the 100s. Aeronautical Experience is 61.109 Commercial is the 120s. Aeronautical Experience is 61.129. ATP is the 150s. Aeronautical Experience is 61.159. You get the idea...
!!
 
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