Dumb Question: Why don't ads disclose pay range?

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
#1
What it says on the tin:

Why do most - if not all - of the jobs in the Corp/Frac/135 arena not disclose what the pay range is for the job? The employer clearly has a range in mind for what they think the job is worth. I realize discussing dollars can be uncouth or uncomfortable, but why not just specify a range, or say, "Pay is commensurate with experience, within the NBAA range for this aircraft" or something like that? Why is it such a hidden thing?

I know I'm asking from a position of ignorance - and perhaps that's just it: the guys who apply for these jobs already know what the pay range is. Is that it?
 

5Right_5Left

Well-Known Member
#2
From my experience it's usually a couple things. Either they are part of an older generation of work force where that was the norm and just never adjusted with the way most of the industry has. Sometimes they think that pilots shouldn't be discussing it amongst each other, for if they hired someone at a higher pay while a current employee whose been around a while may be getting less. Another thing may be they are under paying their staff, they know it and they don't want to broadcast it. Forums could take that info and run with it telling people to stay away which obviously the companies don't want. As for why don't they just say "Pay is commensurate with experience within the NBAA range for this aircraft," there are still a lot of operators being left behind the industry and slow to adjust to the change that are lower than those numbers.
 

bucksmith

Did you lock the doors?
#3
What it says on the tin:

Why do most - if not all - of the jobs in the Corp/Frac/135 arena not disclose what the pay range is for the job? The employer clearly has a range in mind for what they think the job is worth. I realize discussing dollars can be uncouth or uncomfortable, but why not just specify a range, or say, "Pay is commensurate with experience, within the NBAA range for this aircraft" or something like that? Why is it such a hidden thing?

I know I'm asking from a position of ignorance - and perhaps that's just it: the guys who apply for these jobs already know what the pay range is. Is that it?
Short answer, yes.
It used to be more clear when it came to the companies. If you’re going to work for a fly by night (no pun intended) charter operator, you knew what pay to expect. If you were interviewing for a fortune 50 or UHNW individual or family, it was rude, even damning to ask about pay. Now-a-days, things are turned on their heads and you never know what to expect.
I continue to treat it like the old days, with an interesting caveat. We have the internet. Do the research, network and pm people to get a better idea if a company is keeping up with the cycle or falling far behind. Look at how we know the Walmart flight department is trying to turn the ship around and Nike and Verizon can’t keep pilots. (Last I heard) The internet. The other thing is this...I walk into the interview assuming they would pay me a salary commensurate with my experience and current industry standard. The first half of the process is to sell myself and I help that by showing respect for their operation by not asking in the first interview and just try to get them to want me. Then, if they want me, it’s their job to offer me a complete package that will show similar respect and make me want them. At that point, you could counter the offer or simply politely decline. Its a lack of patience if you can’t wait for that process to play out and a lack of preparedness if you are interviewing for a job that won’t pay you what you need to say yes. If you’ve done your research and networking, the two numbers shouldn’t be too far off.
I know that’s not the answer you want, because you want to be able to look ahead and pick goals (dreams), but it’s just not as easy as going to APC and seeing what the GE flight departments pay rates are, like an airline.
I’m sure there will be some people calling this absurd, but my advice comes from the wisdom of my old man before he departed this world and it’s based on his experience at the very top levels of corporate aviation. I’d say there is enough old guys running around in positions of leadership, making this continued sound advice.
YMMV
 

Bob Ridpath

Pit Bull love
#5
Now, I never worked in the airline industry, nor for a Fortune 500 firm, but I AM old. Showed up to every job interview ever, including blue collar, squared-away with a coat and tie (suit when it changed to a managerial level). There ALWAYS came a point in time when finances and benefits were discussed.

Maybe I’m just not understanding this, but how do you know if you want to accept a job offer if you don’t know the pay, the benefits, something of the expectations?

Not sure the right way to say this: I never went to an interview to beg for a job, but as someone who would bring value to a business for all the reasons of which we spoke during the interview about resume/experience/values, etc.
 

Roger Roger

Paid to sleep, fly for fun
#6
Now, I never worked in the airline industry, nor for a Fortune 500 firm, but I AM old. Showed up to every job interview ever, including blue collar, squared-away with a coat and tie (suit when it changed to a managerial level). There ALWAYS came a point in time when finances and benefits were discussed.

Maybe I’m just not understanding this, but how do you know if you want to accept a job offer if you don’t know the pay, the benefits, something of the expectations?

Not sure the right way to say this: I never went to an interview to beg for a job, but as someone who would bring value to a business for all the reasons of which we spoke during the interview about resume/experience/values, etc.
The problem in aviation is pay and quality of life vary so widely, and none of us want to waste our time with an outfit that lowballs, so its frustrating when places don’t at least list a ballpark.
 

Bob Ridpath

Pit Bull love
#7
I absolutely understand. I remember a time when it was more common to list even actual salary ranges for a position, along with desired qualifications for the job. It kinda’ gave you a sense of how to proceed for the particular job as an applicant.
 

Roger Roger

Paid to sleep, fly for fun
#8
I absolutely understand. I remember a time when it was more common to list even actual salary ranges for a position, along with desired qualifications for the job. It kinda’ gave you a sense of how to proceed for the particular job as an applicant.
That was probably also a time when a family could get by on one salary, when pensions still existed, and when executives didn’t make a gazilion times what the line workers did.
 

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
#12
The reason I ask is that time becomes precious. I don't want to waste the time of the interviewer just as I'm sure - if he or she isn't a complete ass - which you can totally say here - doesn't want to waste mine.

I think @bucksmith's answer kinda sums it up, though. We have the ability to do due diligence on the roles - I suppose if you go to an interview without an idea of the pay range already, you haven't done enough research.
 

CFI A&P

Exploring the world one toilet at a time.
#16
Another variable is where the position is located. Granted, in 121 it doesn't matter where you live because the compensation doesn't change. However in the 91/135 world the pay for say a Hawker will vary greatly depending on location. Cost of living in Wisconsin versus NYC metro area, versus Miami (they'll include sunshine in the compensation package).
 

Inverted25

Well-Known Member
#17
The one fortune 50 company I interviewed with didn’t list compensation on the job listing but a HR person called and went over pay and benefits with me before the interview to make sure I was still interested and we didn’t waste anyone’s time.


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