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Drone interferes with CV Marshall stack

Discussion in 'Military Pilots' started by woodreau, Aug 9, 2017.

  1. woodreau

    woodreau Well-Known Member

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    I guess it's not just firefighting bombers that have to worry about drones. Now Iran is messing with pilots in the Arabian Gulf trying to recover on the boat.

    I wonder if these things are visible on radar.

    It's been 15 years since I've sat in the TAO chair running air defense for a task group.

    Any chance of designating the stranger a bandit or hostile and take the track with birds or commit a shooter to engage?

    https://news.usni.org/2017/08/08/ir...fa-18e-super-hornet-preparing-land-uss-nimitz

     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  2. killbilly

    killbilly Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens

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    I'm wondering if the targeting radar from a DDG could fry a small drone mid-flight?
     
  3. Lawman

    Lawman Well-Known Member

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    I'd say you have a couple perfectly good examples of what we do to Iranian drones that F with us in the last few months over Syria.
     
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  4. woodreau

    woodreau Well-Known Member

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    Well probably not - every time we had flight quarters to launch or recover helos, I had to secure the aft SPY array so that we didn't fry the crew of the helo, or going alongside another ship, you secure the SPY arrays on the engaged side.

    The helo's fine, but the crew not so much. A drone would be similar - the radiation hazard distance for the radar wouldn't be far enough to affect a drone at the distance they're probably talking about in this incident.

    I'm wondering if the drone was observed prior to interfering with the stack. The SPY radar is really good at picking up contacts to the point of information overload and exceeding the track limitation of the track database. The radar can track outgoing 5-inch and 25mm rounds fired from the ship. So you have to implement filters to declutter the radar. Since the filters are built by humans, there's always a chance of decluttering and ignoring important tracks like the inbound drone that got into the marshal stack, i.e. the radar detected the drone, but to prevent clutter humans told the radar to drop the track because it did or didn't meet certain criteria .

    I'm not on scene, so I can always play monday-morning quarterback even though I shouldn't... I guess if I were there, at the minimum I'd designate it a bogey. How to get rid of it. It's inside the marshal stack, so it's well inside missile engagement zone, and well inside any of my DCA stations where I'd have CAP aircraft assigned to deal with air threats. A missile engagement is the fastest way to deal with it, but I'd have friendlies I'd have to scram in order to prevent an inadvertent engagement.

    But if you scram the aircraft / move the marshal stack, the drone just follows. Warning it over the radio issuing level 1 and level 2s all day not interfere doesn't do any good - there's no one listening - it's just going to keep doing what it's going to do.

    It's almost too close for area defense. The marshall stack is probably too far for point defense with Sea Sparrow. You can't engage with CIWS or SeaRAM unless the drone is flying directly at the weapons mount. So it leaves me with engaging with SM-2 or 5-inch with HE-IR or bringing the CAP off station all the way back to mother, or having the aircraft in marshall engage it - if they have ordnance for it - they might have ordnance, but aircraft in marshall usually are low on fuel at that point in the cycle so probably wouldn't have the fuel to conduct an engagement.

    Putting an SM-2 in the air is like swinging a sledgehammer at a fly if there are friendlies in the area. I really don't want to be putting birds in the air as I can't provide terminal guidance until the missile is less than 2 seconds from intercept when the illuminator is assigned. 5-inch HE-IR - I'd better hope that the drone doesn't fly in front of any friendly surface or air units down range.

    Probably try to jam the drone's uplink with SLQ-32 but who knows where its going to go when it loses comm.

    So jam the uplink, move the marshal stack, see where where the drone goes, as soon as downrange is clear of friendlies, take it with birds, and since you always back up missiles with guns, cover with 5-inch HE-IR, 20 rounds rapid continuous.

    There is where I want USNS Ponce with its laser to be onstation. Something available today that wasn't available 15 years ago. Unfortunately we only have one laser for the entire Navy and it cant be everywhere.

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/17/politics/us-navy-drone-laser-weapon/index.html
     
  5. ahw01

    ahw01 Well-Known Member

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  6. BigZ

    BigZ Well-Known Member

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    Tl;Dr but I take it no fire and fury?
     
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  7. woodreau

    woodreau Well-Known Member

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    Nah, after I posted all of the above, I realized I was way overthinking it

    Just send the plane guard MH-60 and take it out with the mounted M-60 7.62 machine gun
     
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  8. Nark

    Nark Well-Known Member

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    I can arrange that.. :)
     
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  9. bunk22

    bunk22 Well-Known Member

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    Probably should explain what the marshall stack is, CASE I, II/III
     
  10. Cptnchia

    Cptnchia Well-Known Member

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    No?

    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Inverted25

    Inverted25 Well-Known Member

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    Now I'm not in the military and don't know the rules of engagement but I find it hard to believe we let it get as close as we did to the mothership without blowing it out the sky
     
  12. woodreau

    woodreau Well-Known Member

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    Oh I don't think you'd want another TLDR post ...

    I guess the closest analogue would be you're cruising into ATL descending via the WINNG arrival, and Atlanta goes into holding to flip the airport around, now Atlanta starts giving holding instructions at ERRGO and WINNG and planes are holding stacked 1000ft above each other. That's a marshall stack. Aircraft coming back to the carrier enter a marshall stack to get sequenced for recovery on the boat, Except instead of all of the airplanes holding on top of each other, each aircraft 1,000ft above the other is holding 1 mile farther from the holding fix. So holding at 6000ft at 21DME, 7000ft at 22DME, and so forth - as an example.

    I don't know how they operate today - but back then - once a carrier group enters the Arabian Gulf - it doesn't stay together - the carrier goes into one of 4 CVOAs and due to hydrography they're are all butt up against Iran in the eastern side of the Arabian Gulf. Iran claims more of the Arabian Gulf as territorial waters than the US and the rest of the international community recognizes - I don't remember if we plopped the CVOAs in what we recognize as international waters, but Iran believes it's their territorial waters. If they're the same CVOAs today as they were fifteen years ago, the carrier operating areas haven't changed since well before 1990. So it's not like the Iranians don't know where the carrier generally is.

    The cruisers and destroyers get stripped away from the carrier for other duties. The carrier fends for itself. They'll keep one of the AAW shooters around close to keep tabs but it's not like they're steaming in close formation next to the carrier.
    The shooters are seen as national assets being Tomahawk shooters, but there were tons of other tasks. Back then, we were taken away to do Southern Watch - enforcing the no fly zone during the time Air Force wasn't patrolling in the air. Others got taken away to do convoy escort through the Strait of Hormuz, and the other major task was enforcing UN sanctions so most ships were bogged down sending boarding parties to board the commercial shipping and doing container and manifest inspections. So lots of nit-noid tasks that kept the carrier group from operating in a big task group - about the only time all the ships would get together is for a big group hug and photo when one group arrived to relieve the other group.

    These days, with operating forces being short, there might no relief available and the carrier just leaves and the next one shows up several months later.

    As far as ROE, - at least when we ID'd an Iranian aircraft, we'd still leave it tagged as Unknown - Iranian. You couldn't tag the track as Enemy, i.e. a Bandit. It seems a minor thing on the surface, but its a BIG deal to designate something enemy or hostile. On my first cruise in the Arabian Gulf as a 22-year old brand new butterbar ensign, I was bored on the mid-watch (0000-0400), and started switching the NTDS symbols of all the ships and airplanes around me from squares and half squares (unknown) to diamonds and pointy-hats (enemy) just because ... unbeknownst to me, the classification changes I made got broadcast out to the rest of the task force. So I got the ship into a big mess and I got a nasty butt chewing. Anyways what symbol gets assigned doesn't really matter until force and weapons postures start changing from warning white, weapons safe to warning red, weapons free. If after I had changed everything to enemy that night, the force went to red and free for whatever reason.. Lots of comm-air flying overhead could have been engaged that night - at the very least it would have very confusing sorting out the real picture of what needed to happen.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
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  13. Cptnchia

    Cptnchia Well-Known Member

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    But then he did.
     
  14. ///AMG

    ///AMG Well-Known Member

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    haha this is completely insane, possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard done by an ENS, but I applaud your method of entertainment seeking. That being said, I would never in my life, ever believe anything a ship told me about anything......dumbest of the dumb (no offense to yourself, I'm sure you were just bored and young)
     
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  15. jskibo

    jskibo Old

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    Its been many years, but I thought for sure we had a plane guard DDG next to us in the Gulf whenever I had a chance to look.....
     
  16. woodreau

    woodreau Well-Known Member

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    Despite the butt chewing I guess the transgression wasn't too bad, even with all my screw ups, still managed to snag a few more promotions. Lol.

    Want to see a ship-driver go nuts? assign him to plane guard behind a carrier. :)
     
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  17. Pilot Fighter

    Pilot Fighter Well-Known Member

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    Have a Growler light 'em up.
     
  18. ///AMG

    ///AMG Well-Known Member

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    with nerd jokes on guard? :)
     
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  19. Pilot Fighter

    Pilot Fighter Well-Known Member

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    Maybe this UAV was out of gas and just wanted to land.
     
  20. Cptnchia

    Cptnchia Well-Known Member

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    Or, maybe it just wanted to defect.
     
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