Didn't know private jet rage was a thing.....

jrh

Well-Known Member
#23
There's nothing wrong with the concept, the problem is people like the guy in the video. Some 135s won't charter flights without a reference from an existing customer, who would have vouched for that D-Bag before he bought that seat? People with delusions of grandeur seem to lose their minds when they fly private, I've seen the results of some very despicable acts committed at 45,000' that never got any media attention due to NDAs. Crews want to help customers they are familiar with, strangers are viewed with a jaundiced eye until they prove themselves. I hate 135.
You and I must have had very different experiences in 135 then. I've been surprised how polite and low maintenance most passengers are. The real tools are few and far between. On the rare occasion I've seen problems, it's been more along the lines of calling a professional cleaning crew, not law enforcement. I really enjoy 135.

Maybe if I started flying passengers who paid by the seat I'd change my mind.
 

knot4u

Repeat Offender
#25
You and I must have had very different experiences in 135 then. I've been surprised how polite and low maintenance most passengers are. The real tools are few and far between. On the rare occasion I've seen problems, it's been more along the lines of calling a professional cleaning crew, not law enforcement. I really enjoy 135.

Maybe if I started flying passengers who paid by the seat I'd change my mind.
That guy bought the seat and apparently thought he was the Captain. I might have been working on these whistling outhouses since 1993, so I'd agree that your experience and mine are probably vastly different.
 

jrh

Well-Known Member
#27
Actually, this in a nutshell.

The short version is the Feds want to make sure that if you hold yourself out as common carrier, that you’re big enough to recover funds from in case something happens.

A shell company or a broker with a cell phone and a PO Box ain’t going to cut it.
Maybe so. Would it be different if it were the actual operator selling seats rather than a broker?

And is that still different from a small 121 operation?

I get the feeling this is more about a distaste for 135 than factual reasoning.
 

jrh

Well-Known Member
#28
That guy bought the seat and apparently thought he was the Captain. I might have been working on these whistling outhouses since 1993, so I'd agree that your experience and mine are probably vastly different.
Man, there is no way I could spend 25 years doing something I hate. I hope you find something better soon.
 

greg1016

Trustworthy Source
#30
There is more oversight of 121 operations. In exchange for the extra oversight, they get to sell by the seat. A brokerage chartering a plane and then selling the seats is an end-run around 121 oversight. That's it. It is not the same as a private individual getting a group together and then chartering a plane and sharing costs.

The travel agency charters are borderline, but at least it is a small scale operation, and for a specific purpose. We have a broker chartering flights to HPN now from my airport. Baseline is a C90, I suppose if they sell more seats than a C90 has they just charter a different plane. I expect it won't last long.
 

knot4u

Repeat Offender
#31
Man, there is no way I could spend 25 years doing something I hate. I hope you find something better soon.
I like working on airplanes most of the time, it can be challenging and rewarding. But after a while some of the disrespect shown by people who charter to an airplane that you've done everything possible to make absolutely perfect gets old. Dogs urinating on the carpets, pen marks on seats, headliners and side walls. I've found feces from an unknown source under seat cushions and syringes stuffed up under the drink rails. I won't even mention issues with lavatories. And I haven't worked for a low end 135 for a long time, so it's pretty much widespread. When you start selling individual seats it's just going to make the problem worse. The sad reality is some people just can't seem to remain humble and fly private, I can offer absolutely no reason why.
 

Autothrust Blue

Ultra-low-cost member
#32
Actually, this in a nutshell.

The short version is the Feds want to make sure that if you hold yourself out as common carrier, that you’re big enough to recover funds from in case something happens.

A shell company or a broker with a cell phone and a PO Box ain’t going to cut it.
HURR DURR MUH DISRUPTIVE INNOVATION DURR.

While your employer doesn’t own the skies, I agree - sufficiently well-heeled operations are welcome, flimsy operations are not.
 

bucksmith

Did you lock the doors?
#33
When a group of people charter a jet, there is going to be a “lead passenger”. This person is usually paying the bill and usually they are frequent users of the system. The makes them beholden to something. They tend to keep the rest of them inline and will be the one I go to when the kid is grinding cookies into the carpet or the other rapper refuses to stop vaping.
From a security standpoint, the above explanation also gives us a certain level of security, unless we’re flying an entire terrorist cell, chances are the lead pack is not allowing a bad actor to accompany his or her party.
Selling by the seat in a corporate jet can open the door to many problems, a few of which have been covered here. Our flight attendants are also not trained to the same level as 121 and might not be prepared for this type situation.
I’m sure most of the time, it works out just fine and turns into a corporate shuttle type of atmosphere. But out of Vegas, a bunch of people who could not afford the airplane on its own, combined with a bunch of d-bag personalities that all think they are the lead passenger? No thanks.
 

jrh

Well-Known Member
#34
Some good points brought up. I agree selling individual seats could lead to obnoxious behavior.

However, I get paid to deal with obnoxious behavior sometimes. It comes with the territory.

I think saying it ought to be illegal to sell individual seats is overkill. No reason to crush a potentially lucrative market because of a few bad apples.
 

bucksmith

Did you lock the doors?
#36
Also, it’s still a free country, your particular operator can just refuse to fly these types of trips. And because most of us are capitalist pigs, we can chose which operator we want to work for.
I’m certainly not advocating making something illegal, let the market sort it out. Personally, we don’t fly this stuff, but we also don’t do much charter. It’s mostly a tax thing for our owner.
 

bucksmith

Did you lock the doors?
#37
How is a brokerage chartering a plane then selling seats not completely illegal?
I’m not sure how they’ve structured it, but I’m sure they’ve twisted the rules enough to make it legal.
But I would be curious to know, who is chartering the plane and how the billing is accomplished.
 

gotWXdagain

Highly Visible Member
#38
I’m not sure how they’ve structured it, but I’m sure they’ve twisted the rules enough to make it legal.
But I would be curious to know, who is chartering the plane and how the billing is accomplished.
At what point does the “Some dude with a cell phone brokering company LLC” need to have their own operating certificate? They’re holding out as an air carrier by advertising seats and collecting revenue; without having an operating certificate, a maintenance program, a training program, or any semblance of operational control whatsoever.
 

knot4u

Repeat Offender
#39
At what point does the “Some dude with a cell phone brokering company LLC” need to have their own operating certificate? They’re holding out as an air carrier by advertising seats and collecting revenue; without having an operating certificate, a maintenance program, a training program, or any semblance of operational control whatsoever.
I like airplane owners who aren't trying to make money on their asset. Realistically the best return you might expect will offset a small portion the cost of ownership and give some tax benefits. The brokers wouldn't have a playground if the owners refused to accept charters on their planes by unknown customers. It sounds elitist, but it's true, some people just shouldn't be allowed to fly private. It has nothing to do with race, gender, sexual preference or religion, some people are just horrible and somehow a private jet magnifies their negative personality traits.
 

Boris Badenov

He comes to save the day in a broken truck.
#40
How many more of these uhm extremely rare and embarrassing minor oversights until some bright spark at one alphabet soup or another twigs to the fact that this is his or her chance to Make A Name? And what happens to everyone's favorite little transparent fiction of making the PIC the IFSO and the SIC the GSO then? It's gonna be a lot more annoying than that CTS module when that happens! What are you gonna throw a metal detector in the baggage with the bins of snacks and minis? I can just picture the line of apoplectic Range Rover owners at KASE as their new Smurf Overlords relish in making their Betters wait 30 minutes to be groped. 135 already has a target on its back and the ice is thin enough as it stands, zero good comes of this. If, Sky Bully Forbid, someone actually gets hurt in one of these things the entire porcine, cud-chewing, reactive, but also totally unaccountable and relentless weight of Bureaucracy is going to land on Ma and Pa Airtaxi like a cartoon piano, all because some slime-trail-leaving sketchball Disruptor couldn't be bothered to at least go through the optics of compliance.
 
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