Cross-Country & Simulated Time & PIC?

pilatus028

New Member
FAR 61.1 (3) Cross-country time means -
(i) except as proviveded in paragraphs (b)(3)(ii), (iii), (iv), and (v) of this section, time acquired during a flight -
(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

I'm doing my commercial under part 141 at the moment. I've already done the required cross countries, with the 50NM distance and the long one with the 250 NM. My question is this, if I was out one day doing a quick flight and I just happened to land at the airport right smack next doork, let's say only 16NM away from my home base would I be able to log that as Cross Country time? And if so, let's say I was asked by the 141 lesson to do touch and go's at another airport other than the depature point, but it doesn't specify as a cross country can I still log it as cross country? That's about it there, I'll ask more as I see the responses.

FAR 61.51 (g) Logging instrument flight time.
(1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

I heard an examiner once say that as a pilot in the Miami area when you're on your way to Fort Myers and your flying through a pitch black sky you can log the time as simulated imc. Would you consider this true? It's like saying your flying a C402 to Cancun from Key West and during the black night and you have no way of telling what's up from down unless you look @ your instruments despite visibility is 10SM plus.

And one more thing....

FAR 61.51 (e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(4) a student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the sudent pilot -
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft....
(ii) Has current solo flight endorsement as required under 61.55 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.

I ask this because I'm looking back at the logbook and I had my solo endorsement awhile before the Practical and I noticed that the flights that I did with my instructor after those solo flights are only dual, shouldn't they also have PIC? Now I have my liscense and I log both PIC and Dual when I fly with my instructor, but is it legal to go back and change it or is it right the way it is?

Another thing, I'm not going to change my logbook I did the totals in pen and I am not the person who is going to change a few hours and make a mess. But for future ocasions can you say it would be better to do the totals in pencil or just stick to pen? Probably a question more towards the airline guys and gals.

Thanks allot!
Clem
 

av8rmsu

Well-Known Member
The FAR 61.1 (3) says nothing about distance, right...you can log it as cross country, but you can't use it towards a rating.

The question about simulated IMC...I have no idea

The PIC question...If you do not have your rating (PPL) and are flying with your instructor...you are not the PIC.

61.51 (e) (4) A student pilot may log PIC time only when the student pilot- (i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember

Could be wrong



Keep reading a little bit more under 61.1 (b) (3) (iv)
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
But for future ocasions can you say it would be better to do the totals in pencil or just stick to pen?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm too tired to get into an FAR discussion tonight, but I'll give you my answer for this one...


Logbooks are considered legal documents, and should be filled out in blue or black ink. And once you start with one color, be consistent. Page after page of multi-colored logbook entries looks sloppy.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
FAR 61.51 (g) Logging instrument flight time.
(1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

I heard an examiner once say that as a pilot in the Miami area when you're on your way to Fort Myers and your flying through a pitch black sky you can log the time as simulated imc. Would you consider this true? It's like saying your flying a C402 to Cancun from Key West and during the black night and you have no way of telling what's up from down unless you look @ your instruments despite visibility is 10SM plus.



[/ QUOTE ]

I personally log IMC only when in IMC WX-wise. IMO, it's sort of candyass to log actual on VFR/VMC night, but that's just me. And I've flown in some damn pitch black from ABQ to PHX, but I still logged night and not IMC.

Simulated IMC, again, I only log under the hood.

We have nitwits where I work that log night VFR/VMC time WHILE UNDER NVGs as night/actual IMC!!!!!!!! That I have a real problem with!
 

av8rmsu

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]

I personally log IMC only when in IMC WX-wise. IMO, it's sort of candyass to log actual on VFR/VMC night, but that's just me. And I've flown in some damn pitch black from ABQ to PHX, but I still logged night and not IMC.

Simulated IMC, again, I only log under the hood.

We have nitwits where I work that log night VFR/VMC time WHILE UNDER NVGs as night/actual IMC!!!!!!!! That I have a real problem with!

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm with you....


The FAR defines IFR conditions as - weather conditions below the minimum for flight under visual flight rules.

I ask this question, if you were simulated IMC, would you need a safety pilot?

I can't see why a person would be able to log it as simulated since there are no restrictions to sight....it just happens that you can't see anything.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
My question is this, if I was out one day doing a quick flight and I just happened to land at the airport right smack next doork, let's say only 16NM away from my home base would I be able to log that as Cross Country time? And if so, let's say I was asked by the 141 lesson to do touch and go's at another airport other than the depature point, but it doesn't specify as a cross country can I still log it as cross country?

[/ QUOTE ]Yes, but. From my personal FAQ:
==============================
This is one of those FAA definitions that change depending on what you're using it for. The definition of cross country falls into three groups:

Group 1: General Definition: A cross country flight is one in which you land at another airport that you didn't accidentally bump into. There are no distance requirements.

Group 2: In order to "Count" for Most Certificates or Ratings: Same as the general definition, except at least one of the places where you land has to be 50+ NM from where you started the flight. This applies to the private and commercial certificates, and the instrument rating.

Group 3: In order to "Count" for ATP: Same as for Most Certificates or Ratings, except you don't have to land anywhere

Apart from there are the "special cross countries" that are part of the experience requirement for certain certificates and ratings. One example is the private pilot certificate requirement for 150 total distance solo cross country with at least one 50 NM leg (61.109(a)(5)).

So, they're all cross country. The problem is keeping track of them so you can total the ones that "count". Most new pilots tend to log only Group 2 since those are the ones that they will have to total up in the near future. Some set up two columns right away (Group 1 counts for 135 experience purposes). The lack of a landing in Group 3 is a well-deserved tip of the hat to military pilots who will often fly some distance without landing.
==============================
[ QUOTE ]
I heard an examiner once say that as a pilot in the Miami area when you're on your way to Fort Myers and your flying through a pitch black sky you can log the time as simulated imc. Would you consider this true?

[/ QUOTE ]It's true. Here's the relevant portion from the somewhat famous "moonless night" FAA legal counsel opinion:

==============================
November 7, 1984
Mr. Joseph P. Carr

Dear Mr. Carr:
This is in response to your letter asking questions about instrument flight time.
First, you ask for an interpretation of Section 61.51(c)(4) of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) regarding the logging of instrument flight time. You ask whether, for instance, a flight over the ocean on a moonless night without a discernible horizon could be logged as actual instrument flight time.

[unrelated portion snipped]

As you know, Section 61.51(c)(4) provides rules for the logging of instrument flight time which may be used to meet the requirements of a certificate or rating, or to meet the recent flight experience requirements of Part 61. That section provides in part, that a pilot may log as instrument flight time only that time during which he or she operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual (instrument meteorological conditions (imc)) or simulated instrument flight conditions. "Simulated" instrument conditions occur when the pilot's vision outside of the aircraft is intentionally restricted, such as by a hood or goggles. "Actual" instrument flight conditions occur when some outside conditions make it necessary for the pilot to use the aircraft instruments in order to maintain adequate control over the aircraft. Typically, these conditions involve adverse weather conditions.
To answer your first question, actual instrument conditions may occur in the case you described a moonless night over the ocean with no discernible horizon, if use of the instruments is necessary to maintain adequate control over the aircraft. The determination as to whether flight by reference to instruments is necessary is somewhat subjective and based in part on the sound judgment of the pilot. Note that, under Section 61.51(b)(3), the pilot must log the conditions of the flight. The log should include the reasons for determining that the flight was under actual instrument conditions in case the pilot later would be called on to prove that the actual instrument flight time logged was legitimate.

[unrelated portion snipped]

Sincerely,
/s/
John H. Cassady
Assistant Chief counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division
==============================
[ QUOTE ]
And one more thing....

FAR 61.51 (e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(4) a student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot -
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft....
(ii) Has current solo flight endorsement as required under 61.55 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.

I ask this because I'm looking back at the logbook and I had my solo endorsement awhile before the Practical and I noticed that the flights that I did with my instructor after those solo flights are only dual, shouldn't they also have PIC?

[/ QUOTE ]No. Read that again:

==============================
a student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot -
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft....
(ii) Has current solo flight endorsement as required under 61.55 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.
==============================

All 3 conditions must exist: undergoing training, current endorsement and is the sole occupant of the aircraft.
 

viper548

Well-Known Member
"Another thing, I'm not going to change my logbook I did the totals in pen and I am not the person who is going to change a few hours and make a mess. But for future ocasions can you say it would be better to do the totals in pencil or just stick to pen? Probably a question more towards the airline guys and gals."


Do the entries in pen and the totals in pencil. This is the first thing I teach my students. I can't tell you how many logbooks I've seen with the totals done in pen and crossed out to make corrections, that ends up looking really sloppy.
I bet some people here will disagree with this, but if you insist on using pen for the totals, if you make a mistake, use green white out on the page so it doesn't look sloppy. Using correction fluid in a logbook looks qustionable on entries, but very justifyable for totals. You may change your mind about how you want to log your time (loging landings at all other airports as cross country as opposed to those over 50nm away or vise versa). I just stick to using pencil for the totals.
 

cime_sp

Well-Known Member
If you took the FAA "book" definition, flying around in a 5,000' overcast in the clouds you would not be able to log as instrument time because the weather conditions are above VFR minimums....

Common sense obviously prevails a little here, and hence the "no discernable horizon" interpretation given by the FAA counsel.
 

cherie

New Member
If you log a moonless night as actual IMC, you cannot prove that there was no visible horizon. If the weather IS actual IMC no one is going to debate you. If I go to an official with my logbook full of moonless night actual IMC some may say ok and others will raise their eyebrows at me. I would recommend that you only log actual when it is actually actual.

As far as the cross country goes, if you log a jump to the next airport as XC, you are going to have to do alot of frantic subtracting and wondering every time you fill out an 8710. Flying to the next airport is not going to count as cross country time towards a rating, unless the next airport is 50nm away
.
And the PIC question is pretty straight forward...when you are the sole occupant, when taking or giving flight instruction except a student pilot, a non instrument pilot with an instructor in IMC, a non multi rated student flying with an instructor etc...
 

cherie

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
If you took the FAA "book" definition, flying around in a 5,000' overcast in the clouds you would not be able to log as instrument time because the weather conditions are above VFR minimums....

it is if you are in the middle of IMC conditions, you can take off and not hit IMC until 10.000 feet, but once you are in it, you are in. Use the 3sm and ceiling rule if you are taking off...i.e if you have to maintain VFR for some reason.
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
a non instrument pilot with an instructor in IMC

[/ QUOTE ]

Instrument students can log PIC in IMC as long as they are rated in cat/class and it is signed off by a CFII.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a non instrument pilot with an instructor in IMC

[/ QUOTE ]

Instrument students can log PIC in IMC as long as they are rated in cat/class and it is signed off by a CFII.

[/ QUOTE ]No CFI is required.

Example. Two private pilots go for a flight together. Pitot A is instrument rated; Pilot B is not. Pilot A files IFR. During the flight, they enter IMC. Pilot A lets Pilot B do the flying. Pilot B gets to log PIC for that portion of the flight that he is (drum roll) "is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, even in IMC

==============================
Rule 1 If you are a recreational, private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft you are rated for.

"Rated" means the category and class (and type, if a type rating is necessary for the aircraft) that is listed on the back of your pilot certificate. Nothing else matters. Not instrument ratings. Not endorsements for high performance, complex, tailwheel aircraft. Not medical currency. Not flight reviews. Not night currency. Nothing. There are no known exceptions. .
==============================
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Ah, thanks. I knew that...doh!


[/ QUOTE ]No "doh!'s" required. The use of the term "PIC" to mean two completely different things just by sticking the word "log" or "act" in front of it ain't easy to keep straight.

Go to a live FIRC and guess which regulations the CFIs have the most trouble with?
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I would recommend that you only log actual when it is actually actual.

[/ QUOTE ]Ah, but there's the problem. "Actual" is defined as

==============================
"Actual" instrument flight conditions occur when some outside conditions make it necessary for the pilot to use the aircraft instruments in order to maintain adequate control over the aircraft.
==============================

One result is the "moonless night with no discernible horizon" where you are in actual while technically in VMC.

The other result is that you can be in IMC and =not= be in actual. IMC simply means conditions less than VFR. So you are on an IFR flight plan, tooling along 100' below the overcast ceiling in controlled airspace, no clouds below you and 50 miles visibility. IMC? Yes. Absolutely. "Actual"? No. At least not unless you are a very bad pilot!
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would recommend that you only log actual when it is actually actual.

[/ QUOTE ]Ah, but there's the problem. "Actual" is defined as

==============================
"Actual" instrument flight conditions occur when some outside conditions make it necessary for the pilot to use the aircraft instruments in order to maintain adequate control over the aircraft.
==============================

One result is the "moonless night with no discernible horizon" where you are in actual while technically in VMC.

The other result is that you can be in IMC and =not= be in actual. IMC simply means conditions less than VFR. So you are on an IFR flight plan, tooling along 100' below the overcast ceiling in controlled airspace, no clouds below you and 50 miles visibility. IMC? Yes. Absolutely. "Actual"? No. At least not unless you are a very bad pilot!

[/ QUOTE ]

I still think the moonless night deal is candyass to log.
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I still think the moonless night deal is candyass to log.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. It rubs me the wrong way to know that some nut might get more preference over me for a job because he logs actual time that way- and it may very well be on smooth, moonless nights over the desert. Big difference from flying around in solid clouds. I only log actual time when I am in the soup.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I still think the moonless night deal is candyass to log.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. It rubs me the wrong way to know that some nut might get more preference over me for a job because he logs actual time that way- and it may very well be on smooth, moonless nights over the desert. Big difference from flying around in solid clouds. I only log actual time when I am in the soup.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree. People will always try to "lawyer" flight time definitions to suit their particular logging needs. Same goes with the "acting" vs "logging" of PIC, IMO. I guess because I've got more PIC than I'll ever need, I log it fairly conservatively when it comes to flying with another live body on a plane.

I think it's candyass to do the whole "I log PIC even though I'm not instrument rated, merely because I'm at the controls in IMC and there's an instrument rated pilot sitting next to me." Might be legal by definition, but IMO, is still a candyass attempt at grasping every extra 0.1 available.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I still think the moonless night deal is candyass to log.

[/ QUOTE ] Simple: Don't log it.

There are two distinct questions here, One is what the rules =permit= you to log; the other is your personal preference about what you choose to log.

The FAA only cares about two things:

(1) that you log what is necessary to show someone that you are current or qualified to take the test for a certificate or rating

(2) that what you put in your logbook isn't fraudulent.

Problem is that fulfilling No 2 requires the same understanding of the details as the type of logging that some people complain about.

Take "actual" scenario we've been discussing.

The VFR pilot on the moonless night may rub you the wrong way if he logs actual but he's legit.

The IFR pilot who logs actual just because the weather is technically IMC probably doesn't rub anyone the wrong way, but he's falsifying his logbook.

The information is the same. What you do with it is something else.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
Which I don't, of course, log. What I do have a problem with is just what I stated of some that will go to whatever lengths to justify every 0.1.

Point is, if the time logged isn't fairly clear cut, or you have to justify it, you're probably wrong.
 
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