1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

CRJ V1 cuts !

Discussion in 'Airline Pilots' started by This is My Screen Name, Feb 23, 2017.

  1. PhilosopherPilot

    PhilosopherPilot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2003
    Messages:
    3,080
    Likes Received:
    2,453
    At our shop we only do approaches with vertical guidance, so there aren't many different types possible. ILS or VGP (RNAV, RNP, VOR with coded angle), and that's it. All of the VGP approaches are flown essentially the same, acknowledging that RNPs have some additional setup required.

    We do not do stepdown approaches anymore. So no LOC or BC approaches, and no approaches with no coded descent angle.
     
  2. Autothrust Blue

    Autothrust Blue mash buttan

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2010
    Messages:
    16,850
    Likes Received:
    9,861
    Hashtag goals.
     
  3. n156499000

    n156499000 Titanius Anglesmith

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2012
    Messages:
    238
    Likes Received:
    126
    My IOE was mostly visual approaches. A couple ILS approaches including a CAT II but mostly visuals. Oh and lots of holding waiting for King Air drivers to cancel their IFR flight plans after landing.
     
  4. Screaming_Emu

    Screaming_Emu Whale Barista

    Joined:
    May 29, 2002
    Messages:
    14,262
    Likes Received:
    15,506
    We have the IAN that makes any approach look like an ILS, but it's only on the 747-8. Would be pretty cool if everyone knew how to use it!
     
  5. Jordan93

    Jordan93 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2015
    Messages:
    385
    Likes Received:
    447
    That stuff is too fancy for the CRJ to handle:)
     
  6. Screaming_Emu

    Screaming_Emu Whale Barista

    Joined:
    May 29, 2002
    Messages:
    14,262
    Likes Received:
    15,506
    I actually flew a couple 900s with VNAV. So it's possible.
     
    Autothrust Blue likes this.
  7. Beefy McGee

    Beefy McGee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2011
    Messages:
    674
    Likes Received:
    759
    All our 900s and some of the 700s have VNAV. Pretty cool.
     
    Screaming_Emu likes this.
  8. Screaming_Emu

    Screaming_Emu Whale Barista

    Joined:
    May 29, 2002
    Messages:
    14,262
    Likes Received:
    15,506
    Really made a difference vs watching the damn snowflake without any numbers associated with it.
     
  9. Autothrust Blue

    Autothrust Blue mash buttan

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2010
    Messages:
    16,850
    Likes Received:
    9,861
    "How do you do vertical planning at an outstation?"

    "10000', 30 nm, 250 knots."

    "But what do you put in the FMC—"

    "10000', 30 nm, 250 knots."

    "Oh."
     
  10. This is My Screen Name

    This is My Screen Name Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2017
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    8
    Funny that the conversation evolved into descent planning, as I'm in the middle of IOE and having a small amount of trouble with it. I did want to clarify, when I said ILS most of the time is that we always dial it in if available not necessarily fly the ILS.

    So, long story short my troubles are centered around just a lack of experience based on talks with IOE captains. I'm one of those guys that had the bare minimum requirements and was previously a VFR helicopter guy. That said though, I still need to figure this out in XXX hours.... since everyone was so helpful with the V1 cuts (I got them down to PRO level by the way!) I thought I'd ask for a little help here.

    First all I'm not the best with mental math. I'm going to make up some scenarios while I'm at home and just work through them. Before I do that though I wanted to make sure I practice correctly which is why I'm here. With my lack of experience with STARS and such - didn't fly many of those in the old Cessna...- I sometimes get mixed up on the way controllers say stuff because as we all know it isn't always done by the book.

    Making sure I got this straight -
    • the only "proper way" to be put on the star is "Descend Via" ?
    • lateral guidance always applies unless they vector you off
    • speeds always apply unless they say otherwise
    • crossing restrictions always apply unless cleared otherwise
    So I feel like I'm kind of stuck in this spot where its you got what the controller clears you, you got what the airplane is capable of, you got what the company wants (fuel efficient) and then you got what the captain of the day likes.... haha ! I'm still figuring out what the plane is capable of, different ways you can get clearances revolving around a STAR and just being smooth.

    Thanks for any tips and advice, trying to keep all the different rules and procedures can overwhelm you sometimes when you just don't have a lot of experience. I'm rereading all the company literature and FAA Instrument books but I feel like I'm kind of wandering around in the dark.

    EDIT -
    Found this - https://www.cfinotebook.net/notebook/aircraft-operations/terminal/standard-terminal-arrival

    think its pretty helpful.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2017
  11. mikecweb

    mikecweb Third Generation Arizonan

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2005
    Messages:
    10,757
    Likes Received:
    10,562
    Story time.
     
  12. Cherokee_Cruiser

    Cherokee_Cruiser Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2001
    Messages:
    7,777
    Likes Received:
    3,198

    Wait, jetBlue can't do LOC approaches?
     
  13. PhilosopherPilot

    PhilosopherPilot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2003
    Messages:
    3,080
    Likes Received:
    2,453
    Nope. We removed them from the Ops Specs. All approaches must have vertical guidance (ILS or FMS). We cannot do CANPA or step down approaches of any type.
     
  14. Cherokee_Cruiser

    Cherokee_Cruiser Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2001
    Messages:
    7,777
    Likes Received:
    3,198
    Oh ok, wow. But I guess that's where the future is headed anyway. We can do LOC approaches, it's flown in LOC / FPA.
     
  15. PhilosopherPilot

    PhilosopherPilot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2003
    Messages:
    3,080
    Likes Received:
    2,453
    That was legal on the bus prior to the change in 2015. But we did a system-wide analysis and most places wouldn't be negatively impacted by the change. Very few planes have been forced to divert as a result, and it's far safer.
     
    Autothrust Blue likes this.
  16. adk

    adk Steals Hotel Toilet Paper

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    Messages:
    668
    Likes Received:
    450
    There are many ways to plan a descent. I'm sure others will chime in, and you can pick a method that works for you.

    My method is figuring out how much time I have to get to the fix, and then how quickly I need to descend to make my altitude in time.

    I turn my groundspeed into miles per minute. For example, if I'm doing 480 groundspeed that's 6 miles per minute. If the fix is 60 miles away, I have 10 minutes until I get there. Now I know I have 10 minutes to make my descent. If I need to lose 20,000 feet, That's a 2,000 foot per minute descent.

    Again, to simplify, I figure out how much time I have to descend, and then what descent rate I need to get there in time.




    For the STARs you are correct on lateral and speed, but I'm not sure you've got it fully on the altitudes.

    "Descend Via" means comply with all altitudes and speeds on the STAR
    "Descend via the STAR except maintain 10,000" means comply with all altitude restrictions on the STAR but also do not go below 10,000.
    "Descend and Maintain" means you may disregard altitudes on the STAR (but it's still a good idea to stay close) but must follow speeds.
    ATC can also completely modify the SID and just say "Cross [fix name] at 12,000" and this means you can disregard all prior altitudes on the STAR.

    Complicated? Absolutely. For a little deeper knowledge: https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...00/afs470/pbn/media/Climb_Descend_Via_FAQ.pdf
     
  17. This is My Screen Name

    This is My Screen Name Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2017
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    8
    Great FAA link, thank you

    Shouldn't that be 8 miles per minute or am I doing the math wrong ?
     
  18. guywhoflies

    guywhoflies Y'NO WUT IM SAYIN

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2008
    Messages:
    888
    Likes Received:
    224
    You are correct. The concept still applies, though. That is pretty much the way I do it. Also, the CRJ has the "banana bar" which is a great tool to use. You still have to make sure you will make the crossing restrictions but it helps so you don't get in a jam for the final hard altitude.
     
  19. Beefy McGee

    Beefy McGee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2011
    Messages:
    674
    Likes Received:
    759
    Banana bar makes it easy. Don't over think it.
     
  20. TUCKnTRUCK

    TUCKnTRUCK That guy

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2008
    Messages:
    3,632
    Likes Received:
    1,509
    Shoot... we get VPA to destination, vertical speed to Destination, leg by leg FPA on arrivals, the "banana bar" and all that jazz...

    As long as the fancy machine works, it's really hard to get behind.

    Otherwise, similar GS/time calculations above. Generally I will add 10% to the calculated FPM to allow for AP/FD capture. Sometimes when we get slammed by ATC, capture may initiate more than 1000 prior.
     

Share This Page