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CRJ V1 cuts !

Discussion in 'Airline Pilots' started by This is My Screen Name, Feb 23, 2017.

  1. This is My Screen Name

    This is My Screen Name Well-Known Member

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    CRJ V1 cuts are kicking my butt !

    Any help/tips appreciated.
     
  2. KappaSigmaPilot

    KappaSigmaPilot Well-Known Member

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    Where are you in training? Personally, when working on V1 cuts I think it makes them the easiest to ensure you stay outside the aircraft until you are flying and stabilized climbing away from the ground if visibility permits. As the engine fails come in with sufficient rudder to keep that nose on the center line and leave that much pressure in as you start your climb. Once stabilized, then you can come back in and center up your brick. Also, chair flying can help get those call outs and profiles down so they come out without having to waste too much brain power thinking about it while trying to fly a broken airplane.
     
  3. JordanD

    JordanD Sizeable Member

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    One thing that helped... Don't be in a hurry to yank the nose up right at "rotate". Don't run off the end of the runway at 200 knots obviously, but get the thing stabilized, then get it into the air.
    But I don't fly the CRJ, mileage may vary, void where prohibited, express written consent of Major League Baseball, all those disclaimers.
     
  4. Screaming_Emu

    Screaming_Emu Whale Barista

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    Exactly what I was going to say. When the engine fails, forget about the takeoff part for a second as until you have control, that doesn't matter. Also don't try to guess which side it's coming.

    Cut it into three phases. 1) Maintain control 2) continue the takeoff/EFP 3) Cleanup/checklists
     
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  5. JeppUpdater

    JeppUpdater Well-Known Member

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    As a sim instructor (not on the Canadian Reset Jet) I say this here is excellent advice.

    Expect every sim takeoff to be a V1 cut. When it goes, stay outside, get your directional control, once you're nice and stable slowly rotate to whatever pitch attitude is needed. Remember as soon as the nose wheel breaks ground contact you're going to lose its friction so you'll likely need a little more rudder. From that point fly the data, use the flight director, make your call outs, and let your PM help you.

    The biggest eff up I see in the sim is people who feel the V1 cut then absolutely rip the thing off the ground. Get your directional control first, then take it into the air. Don't take a bucking bronco of an airplane into the unfriendly skies at 500 RVR until you are damn good and ready.
     
  6. Screaming_Emu

    Screaming_Emu Whale Barista

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    It's the same deal in the 747. Step one: don't crash. Step two:????? Step three: go flying.

    Smooth is key. Any action you do is going to cause other stuff to happen (yaw creates roll, etc). The smoother you are, the slower the unintended stuff happens and it's easier to correct.
     
  7. cmhumphr

    cmhumphr Well-Known Member

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    Without repeating what others have said, make sure you set up for the engine failure procedure as much as possible. Places like PDX, SLC, EGE, etc, all have special EO procedures so be sure to set up FIX rings (not sure if the CRJ can set DME rings), to remind yourself of turns, or when you have to climb. Or course the PM should be monitoring this as well.

    You can fly the absolute most perfect V1 cut, only to find out you were supposed to turn left at 400 feet because of mountains ahead. DOH'!

    Oh and another thing, after you get it under control on the runway and you rotate up to the command bars, just "lock it in". Don't worry about the aileron and rudder right away, especially down low at 50 feet. That will really throw off your concentration if you're trying to put units of trim in, only to take it out once you start accelerating anyway. Don't skip leg day!
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2017
  8. Autothrust Blue

    Autothrust Blue mash buttan

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    This thing is really pretty tame. If you're having trouble with a V1 cut on the Canadair you're really just having V1 cut trouble.

    Tips:

    Stop the yaw. Don't try to veer back to centerline right away. Get the airplane under control and tracking straight before you rotate.

    Rotate towards the flight director.

    Speed, heading (NAV), bug V2, half bank. Fly flight director. If you feel an urge to hold ailerons it's because the rudder's wrong. Keep the ball centered. There are varying schools of thought on whether or not to trim the rudder force off (I trim some of it off), but at acceleration height you'll need to adjust the yaw input anyway so...

    Smoke cigarette until 600' AFE (it's gonna be a while on the -200). Engage autopilot, keep the ball centered. If the yoke displaces in a certain direction then you need to adjust the rudder input in that direction - Otto doesn't know how to rudder.

    Level off at acceleration height.

    Smoke another cigarette while accelerating to VFTO and retract flaps on schedule.

    Climb at MCT and Vfto until clear of obstacles. Full maneuvering is available at Vfto.

    Repeat.

    The only complications besides mechanical flying difficulties are special EFOT procedures, but those are engineered so the average pilot on the average day can pop one at V1 and still not hit anything. You're half-bank until Vfto (okay, full maneuvering is also available at V2+20 and takeoff flaps/slats, but we don't fly most of our procedures that way except RNO and ASE/EGE).
     
  9. Autothrust Blue

    Autothrust Blue mash buttan

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    That seemed to be a source of trouble for many on the 175.

    Reality: I'd rather be through V2+10 and under control almost everywhere than have someone try to take it flying before they're straight and squared away.

    I personally think the V1 cuts are harder on the E-jet than on the CRJ, incidentally. Hardest part about the 200 is that the damn thing takes forever to get there.

    -200: "oh god this is taking forever."
    -700: "oh...we lost one I guess."

    Brasilia: "ENGINE FAILURE CHECK POWER. POSITIVE RATE GEAR UP CHECK FEATHER" (and I already knew if it was feathered or not...)
     
  10. Pilot Hopeful

    Pilot Hopeful Well-Known Member

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    May we explore this rotation issue further? Obviously, an unnatural yanking of the aircraft off the ground is undesirable, regardless of engine failure. And as several posts have noted here, stabilizing yaw with the assistance of visual cues is helpful before climbing into the clouds.

    However, aircraft performance calculations are based on the aircraft rotating at Vr. On the CRJ, that speed is often very near or at V1. I would argue that it is nearly impossible NOT to be in the rotation as the aircraft begins the yaw towards the failed engine if we are flying the profile as specified, which requires rotating at Vr, not some arbitrary higher speed.

    Sure, many airports offer plenty of margin, so being a little fast is probably not a problem in reality. But I would also argue that not rotating at the specified rotation rate at Vr is similar to deciding to discontinue a takeoff above V1; both scenarios invalidate planned data and could compromise (or eliminate) safety margins (including obstacle clearance on the climb).

    So, the lessons here seem to be:
    (1) Fly the profile.
    (2) Rotate at Vr, but don't over-rotate or accelerate the rotation rate.
    (3) Concentrate on maintaining directional control, especially while visual references are present.

    Does that sound correct?
     
  11. Autothrust Blue

    Autothrust Blue mash buttan

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    It's a good point, but aircraft control is primary. Once OP gets the stop-the-yaw part down, then we can finesse the rotation-at-Vr part. Rotation at Vr does you no good if there's an ensuing snaproll and sound of bagpipes.

    Performance: measured with a micrometer, marked with a grease pencil and cut with a hacksaw. Or, "yeah, this thing TOTALLY weighs 47,000lb (why is the green line way up there and Vref way down there, and other existential quandaries?)"

    V1 cuts are sort of silly anyway:
    - engines don't really quit at V1...I mean except when they do, but
    - loss of an engine at V1 is the controllability worst case as much as it is the performance worst case; you demonstrating the maneuver means that you can control the aircraft just as much as ensuring that the desired performance is achieved.

    I personally think it's harder when one quits at 400'. Or during flap retraction.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2017
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  12. This is My Screen Name

    This is My Screen Name Well-Known Member

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    Thanks all much appreciated, guess I could have elaborated more. I get the initial rudder "locked in" and I believe I'm "squared off" but when I rotate it all goes down hill from there.

    There is an emphasis by the trainers to get it into the air as soon as possible and still make first segment for safety.

    I'm in initial sims prior to IOE.

    While discussing over breakfast an old training captain overheard me talking to my friend about it. He broke it down like this for me if it helps anyone else out there. As the engine fails you begin losing thrust but as long as its turning you are still getting some so the amount of rudder needed in relation to engine failure changes. As you speed up the rudder gets more effective so the amount needed changes. As you rotate the amount needed changes, etc, etc, etc. I feel a little foolish talking about it on the ground but its all so elementary... but anyhow end of the day, what he said matches what was said here. Get it locked in, squared off, rotate, adjust as needed and then take a cigarette break LOL !

    very much appreciated again ya'll, take care
     
  13. Jordan93

    Jordan93 Well-Known Member

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    Don't rush anything. The V1 cut is NOT a quick maneuver. You have all the time in the world. Keep your eyes outside and keep the nose on the centerline. Once you see the nose drift, kick that rudder in.
     
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  14. ctab5060X

    ctab5060X Well-Known Member

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    If you are having trouble with V1 cuts in the -200, ask your instructor if you can do a few while you sit on your hands.

    V1 cuts are all about rudder and maintaining directional control.
     
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  15. Beefy McGee

    Beefy McGee Well-Known Member

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    My problem with V1 cuts simulator training is sim instructors getting on to a student for not making corrections fast enough because the student had to wait until he saw the nose move one way or the other or saw the engine instruments change - you know, to figure out there was a loss and which one it was.

    Whereas the instructor knew which engine was going to fail before it happened.

    Pretty distracting to have an (impatient) instructor get on someone like that. Give the student a chance to detect it and do what he's supposed to do before you start distracting that student with verbal corrections.
     
  16. Autothrust Blue

    Autothrust Blue mash buttan

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    The other extreme of this is "THE AIRPLANE IS HEADING FOR THE WEEDS" while reaching for the motion stop switch.
     
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  17. jtrain609

    jtrain609 Director of Operations at Tycho Station.

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    It ain't so bad when you go into the weeds on motion. Botch a stall recovery and drop a wing? That gets interesting fast.
     
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  18. CFIT99

    CFIT99 I'm probably commenting ironically...

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    some instructors tell you to hold on the center column to train your brain that the roll input is. it need right now
     
  19. Autothrust Blue

    Autothrust Blue mash buttan

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    Don't overthink this.

    Do whatever it takes to keep the airplane straight (not necessarily to immediately return to the centreline).
     
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  20. Crop Duster

    Crop Duster UNSUB

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    Vr is a suggestion, not a rule. Keep the nose on the runway! Get straight! Relax. Watch the little distance remaining signs. Rotate when squared away. Use lots of rudder. Fly to level off. Easy peasy.
    Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast.
     

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