CRJ Questions

H46Bubba

Well-Known Member
Just got back from seeing the inlaws in New Mexico last night. We were looking to see if Doug was flying on our flight from SAN to SLC on Friday, but he wasn't and still remains just a face and some words on this site. I had the opportunity to fly on a Skyest CRJ from SLC to ABQ and back. I was really impressed being my first time on a CRJ. It increased my eagerness to get in the right seat of an RJ. I've got a couple of questions I was hoping that some of you RJ guys could answer for me.

1. What is the usual descent rate and IAS/Mach#?

2. On our flight into SLC from ABQ, the pilot had the spoilers extended on final descent and lowered the landing gear before the flaps were lowered. Is this a normal procedure to slow the aircraft down?
 

A300Capt

Freight Dawg
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2. On our flight into SLC from ABQ, the pilot had the spoilers extended on final descent and lowered the landing gear before the flaps were lowered. Is this a normal procedure to slow the aircraft down?


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The gear is a great speed brake and gear extension speeds are typically higher than flap speeds so it's not unusual to lower the gear first to help come down and slow down at the same time. Jets are slippery beast in the clean configuration. They don't don't slow down and come down at the same time very well.

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What is the usual descent rate and IAS/Mach#?


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Descent rates vary depending on the need. They're probably in the neighborhood of 2-3000fpm under normal descent speeds and without speedbrakes. If you let the speed build up to Mmo/Vmo and pop the boards (spoilers), you'll probably get 5-6000+fpm.

I've never flown an RJ but a jet's a jet!
 

Prospective_Pilot

New Member
H46Bubba,
What time did you fly into and out of SLC last Friday? Reason I ask is because between 1730 and 1830 I was on the top level of the carpark watching aircrafts takeoff/land on RWY 34R while waiting for my my dad to fly in from Chicago. Just wondering if maybe I saw the aircraft you happened to be on?!?!?!
 

Cheechako

Well-Known Member
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1. What is the usual descent rate and IAS/Mach#?

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Company profile is to desend at .77 Mach or 320 kts whichever is lower (down to 10,000 feet, of course). Descent rates vary based on crossing restrictions, etc, but is usually planned at around 3000 fpm.

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2. On our flight into SLC from ABQ, the pilot had the spoilers extended on final descent and lowered the landing gear before the flaps were lowered. Is this a normal procedure to slow the aircraft down?

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Not a normal procedure in the RJ to put the gear down before flaps. The hydraulic system in the RJ that runs the gear (and a slew of other things) has only one pump operating with the flaps up. Once the flaps go down, another pump joins the system to help carry the load. So, when an RJ pilot drops the gear (at a max speed of 250kts) before putting out the first flap increment (at 215 kts) the single hydraulic pump works rather hard to get the gear out. At 250 kts, a Triple Chime and "Gear Disagree" or "Nose Door" or I've even heard both aural warning sounds because the mains have come down, but the system is having a problem overcoming the windstream to get the nose door open and closed in a timely manner. So, a rather long-winded way of saying, No, not a normal procedure. Better to decrease the rate of descent, let the airspeed bleed off, get the flaps out, then gear down. The RJ comes down a LOT better with flaps out rather than with just the gear.

Glad you had a good experience on Skywest!
 

vipermcg

New Member
When I was wating for takeoff, I noticed that all the RJ's didnt have any flaps down for takeoff. Is this common on the RJ? I thought maybe they didnt need takeoff flaps on longer runways, but this was at LGA, which is pretty short.
 

Baronman

Well-Known Member
No flaps for take-off out of LGA??? I think you saw a -200 series RJ which doesn't have leading edge devices, thus you saw the leading edge looking "up" (it better be in a -200 series RJ!).

The earlier Bombardier RJs (not the -700) without the leading edge devices have notoriously high ref speeds, I'm sure a flap up take off is a no-no. But I'm sure Chris from Skywest could answer that!!

Actually I just read an issue of Professional Pilot which did a big rating (by pilots/mechanics/operators) of regional aircraft. It seems that the Bombardier-700 is the top dog, they seemed to fix the two biggest complaints that people had about the -200 being 1. Poor climb performance and 2. High Ref. speeds. How'd the fix it? BIGGER ENGINES and Leading edge devices. Geeezz...I could have told them how to fix that!!
 

vipermcg

New Member
Actually, the plane I saw was an ERJ-135. However, I did read once that sometimes even the F-100's do takeoffs with no flaps.
 

Cheechako

Well-Known Member
ALWAYS take off with flaps in the CRJ. You can take off with 8 or 20 degrees. Skywest usually goes off with 20 where ASA is usually at 8.
 

H46Bubba

Well-Known Member
Chris, thanks for the info. Yeah I always have good flight on SkyWest! Usually they're Brasillia flights, but the CRJ flights to ABQ and back were top notch. SkyWest is a great outfit. Most of the instructors from my FBO have been getting picked up for the Brasillia. I have my sights on SkyWest also, when the time comes.
 

pljenkins

Resident Knucklehead
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I noticed that all the RJ's didnt have any flaps down for takeoff...

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On the RJ, you have two choices, 8 degrees or 20 degrees. 8 degrees is a rather normal setting for all but the shorter fields, and it certainly don't look obvious that the flaps are down at all when they're at 8 degrees. I assure you though that they were out to some extent... I don't think we're even allowed to maintainance ferry a CRJ with flaps 0, since the CRJ already rotates at around 160 knots, and the tires are only rated up to 180 or so.

Paul
 

Jason

Well-Known Member
The CRJ doesn't rotate at 160 knots. It's been a few years now since I've flown the CRJ but I seem the remember the Vrotate speeds to be in the 120 to 130 range.

Jason
 

Mr_Creepy

Well-Known Member
I'm a CRJ sim instructor, and I flew the line for a few years at Mesa as a CRJ captain. (and I miss it horribly!)

The gear down at 250 is not a standard procedure but as Our Man From Skywest has indicated, it is fairly common (otherwise how does he know about the "Gear Disagree" and "Nose Door" warnings? LOL!)

It is referred to as the "Southwest Speed Brake", as SW pilots fequently drop the gear at 250 to slow down to the flaps 1 speed of (and my memory is bad here, I only flew the 737-700 at Midway for 1 year ...) approx 220kts??

He is correct about the single hydraulic pump activating the gear (pump 3A.) The backup pumps are operating whenever the flaps are not at zero, and weight is off the wheels.

I recall one time going in to STL that I was turned on a very short final and surprised my FO by asking for Gear Down, as we were not down to flaps speeds yet (215 kts) but we need to get down and slow down! Not surprisingly, it worked, and we were able to get stabilized by 1500 AGL.

I love talking about the CRJ
More Questions Please!

By the way Jason, I flew with a captain at Midway who had your by line. In his preflight brief to me he said, "I view the barber pole not as a limitation, but as a goal." It was not a pleasant month - you might want to change that one!
 

Jason

Well-Known Member
Tenney! Haven't talked to you for a while. I was in Indoc with ya' at Midway - send me an email at jecutter4616@aol.com


Kind of off topic a little but a CRJ question none the less. I've heard of alot of problems with the new -700's - something about transferring fuel into the center tank and then not being able to transfer it back - anybody know anything about this?

Jason
 

H46Bubba

Well-Known Member
Okay, here are some more questions.

1.Why do you wait until taxi, to start the 2nd engine? I know for aircaft like the 737, you can start both after pushback.

2.How hard is it to taxi with the asymetrical thrust of one engine?

3.What is the usual climb rate at rotation and during the climb to cruise without speed restrictions and at what speed after 010?

4.After takeoff, how soon do you engage the autopilot? And how much time is actually hands on flying?

5.Does not having leading edge slats, effect wing lift efficiency? I think I heard that the 700 had leading edge slats.

Those were some pretty easy questions, that's all I could think up here at work. I'm trying to make mental notes for the future.
 

Mr_Creepy

Well-Known Member
COOTER!!!! Howaya Jason


I will check on that -700 question. My good friend Jim Reynolds is flying those for Mesa.

H46,

"1.Why do you wait until taxi, to start the 2nd engine? I know for aircaft like the 737, you can start both after pushback."

H, as for starting one engine while taxiing, that is an abnormal situation at the places I go. The only time I do that is when the APU is inop and I have to do a crossbleed start once we get away from the terminal. Reason? Crossbleeds need about 60psi in the duct and that requires about half throttle (or more on hot days). Oh my ghandi - I just said "throttle" and I was talking about a jet. LOL

I like to taxi single engine because it saves gas, but there is a limitation on the CRJ that both engines must have 5 minutes to warm up before take off. So single engine taxi is only for places like LGA, IAD and BOS.

"2.How hard is it to taxi with the asymetrical thrust of one engine?"

I never notice it. Consider the CRJ to be Centerline Thrust.

"3.What is the usual climb rate at rotation and during the climb to cruise without speed restrictions and at what speed after 010?"

Pitch up 10 degrees on rotation (although I've heard you can go 15), dial in 200 kts and start retracting flaps (at 1500 ft). Once they're up I go right to 250 kts. We typically get between 3-4k fpm

The callouts are "v2+12, flaps 8" and "v2+20, flaps up"

"4.After takeoff, how soon do you engage the autopilot? And how much time is actually hands on flying?"

The checklist I use says "600 ft, AP on" but I like to hand fly the jet because it is so responsive. I typically take it up to FL 250 by hand. Drives the FOs nuts


"5.Does not having leading edge slats, effect wing lift efficiency? I think I heard that the 700 had leading edge slats."

-700 and -900s have slats. The -200s do not. I haven't flown anything but 200s yet, although I notice they come in more nose high (like real airliners) than the 200, and I attribute that to LE devices.

What are you flying now?
 

Cheechako

Well-Known Member
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1.Why do you wait until taxi, to start the 2nd engine? I know for aircaft like the 737, you can start both after pushback.

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Fuel savings. Maybe not that much for the individual airplane, but multiply it by hundreds of departures a day for the airline and it adds up! Unless it's the airplane's first flight of the day, a sharp right turn out of the gate or a real short taxi, SE taxi out is standard practice at Skywest. On quick turns the warm-up period is not an issue because the engine is still warm from the last flight.

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2.How hard is it to taxi with the asymetrical thrust of one engine?

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It's pretty easy. Just takes a little right rudder! (We SE taxi exclusively with the right engine - it's a brake thing)

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3.What is the usual climb rate at rotation and during the climb to cruise without speed restrictions and at what speed after 010?

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Here in the high an hot region of the nation, not too good. 2500-3000fpm. Lower altitudes will lend a hand for higher rates. Skywest profile is to climb at 250 kts to 10K, then 290/.70 to cruise altitude. The 290 kts really takes a hit on our climb performance when it's hot and we're heavy. That's one of the shortfalls of the CRJ2. Not a real good climber in the upper altitudes.

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4.After takeoff, how soon do you engage the autopilot? And how much time is actually hands on flying?

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Pilot's discretion to FL200 for Skywest. Most, including myself will hand fly into the teens, unless there's a tricky departure procedure or intermediate level-offs (don't want to work too hard!).
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5.Does not having leading edge slats, effect wing lift efficiency? I think I heard that the 700 had leading edge slats.

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That's a good question for an engineer. All I know is it gives us higher ref speeds and a lower pitch attitude on approach and landing.
 

n77j

Well-Known Member
John or Chris...
Is it the lack of slats why all the CRJ-200 seem to pitch their nose low when they come in for landing? I noticed most of them seem like their nose gear will touch down before their main.
 

Cheechako

Well-Known Member
John might be able to shed a little more light on this one. My understanding is that Bombardier had an RJ crash in testing so they padded all the ref speeds. They're all a little fast- and I think part of it is because there are no leading edge devices. Until you get used to it, three point landings are not uncommon- ugh!
 

stuckingfk

Well-Known Member
Today was an interesting day. UND has a new CRJ-200 level six flight training device that allows anyone to get 65% of their initial type rating in.

UND had an open house for anyone interested in learning about the sim. They were allowing any to fly an approach if they wanted to. So I jumped on that chance. The approach was into Regan in D.C., talk about fun stuff. Those planes do fly fast on approach. I struggled with leading the airplane to where it was going to go. The airspeed indicator was cool telling where you would be in 10 seconds with that purple line. I had a bad landing, flared too much, but I was happy. The controls were easy to move and it was nice to adjust the seat and rudder pedals to fit your body type and personal preferences.

I'll be taking the class associated with the sim in a year, can't wait for that!
 
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