Couple Kicked Off Plane for Ignoring In-Flight Safety Briefing

Autothrust Blue

"I'll take your case."
Yet I hear a number of pilots talk about go arounds as something akin to an emergency procedure of some kind.
I get to do, on average, one every six months. Matter of fact, I’m about due for my next one, statistically. I pretty much never do one.

Toss in a light airplane, the use of full go around thrust on the 321, a low level off altitude (thanks, Tampa) and you may possibly screw up. I didn’t, but it was “100% attention” while we were doing it. It’s not that there’s anything hard, different, or extreme, but it is something that we just don’t do that much, and it is a pretty high performance maneuver. I could go poll my classmates but I’ll bet most of them actually haven’t done one yet.

Which is why Airbus has fitted newer airplanes with soft go-around. And why some shops invented a soft go-around technique (which turns out to have other problems).
 

Screaming_Emu

Dogsheep
I get to do, on average, one every six months. Matter of fact, I’m about due for my next one, statistically. I pretty much never do one.

Toss in a light airplane, the use of full go around thrust on the 321, a low level off altitude (thanks, Tampa) and you may possibly screw up. I didn’t, but it was “100% attention” while we were doing it. It’s not that there’s anything hard, different, or extreme, but it is something that we just don’t do that much, and it is a pretty high performance maneuver. I could go poll my classmates but I’ll bet most of them actually haven’t done one yet.

Which is why Airbus has fitted newer airplanes with soft go-around. And why some shops invented a soft go-around technique (which turns out to have other problems).
I only go around hard.
 

TWP

Well-Known Member
If I was ruler of the universe, passengers would be treated better overall but A LOT more of them would be ejected from flights. I’m deadheading today and tomorrow and I’m sure I’m gonna see 22 examples of first class d-baggery.

We need to go back to flight crews being god and passengers having zero rights once they step foot in the plane. Especially pilots, we should be worshipped and impossibly difficult to fire....we could have so much fun.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
I get to do, on average, one every six months. Matter of fact, I’m about due for my next one, statistically. I pretty much never do one.

Toss in a light airplane, the use of full go around thrust on the 321, a low level off altitude (thanks, Tampa) and you may possibly screw up. I didn’t, but it was “100% attention” while we were doing it. It’s not that there’s anything hard, different, or extreme, but it is something that we just don’t do that much, and it is a pretty high performance maneuver. I could go poll my classmates but I’ll bet most of them actually haven’t done one yet.

Which is why Airbus has fitted newer airplanes with soft go-around. And why some shops invented a soft go-around technique (which turns out to have other problems).
If there not an option to use less than full go around thrust, in airplanes that dont have a soft-go feature? I guess mine was akin to a self-serve soft go....just manually set thrust as-needed for a smooth acceleration go around; no need to full-thrust/ high pitch/ fast accelerate the whole process and make more rushed work for myself when it is VMC and no obstacles to avoid.
 

Autothrust Blue

"I'll take your case."
If there not an option to use less than full go around thrust, in airplanes that dont have a soft-go feature? I guess mine was akin to a self-serve soft go....just manually set thrust as-needed for a smooth acceleration go around; no need to full-thrust/ high pitch/ fast accelerate the whole process and make more rushed work for myself when it is VMC and no obstacles to avoid.
There’s a bunch of techniques for them; the new Airbus airplanes have a mode in which all the magic holds hands and gives you enough thrust for (like) 2000 fpm or something like that. Not sure what Boeing jets have. Short of that, there’s always the opportunity to reduce thrust, all engines operating, whenever the situation demands it.

Certain outfits on other airplanes used modes other than GA and had less than stellar results (read: near CFIT...) down near the ground.
 

Beefy McGee

Well-Known Member
If there not an option to use less than full go around thrust, in airplanes that dont have a soft-go feature? I guess mine was akin to a self-serve soft go....just manually set thrust as-needed for a smooth acceleration go around; no need to full-thrust/ high pitch/ fast accelerate the whole process and make more rushed work for myself when it is VMC and no obstacles to avoid.
There’s a bunch of techniques for them; the new Airbus airplanes have a mode in which all the magic holds hands and gives you enough thrust for (like) 2000 fpm or something like that. Not sure what Boeing jets have. Short of that, there’s always the opportunity to reduce thrust, all engines operating, whenever the situation demands it.

Certain outfits on other airplanes used modes other than GA and had less than stellar results (read: near CFIT...) down near the ground.
And then you have dumb company procedures and SOPs where you are supposed to use GA thrust on all go arounds. If you didn’t and something went wrong, maybe not even related to the GA but a review of events leads to “hey you did a GA without following our procedure of full GA power”, your career is at risk.

Meanwhile, full GA thrust at full flaps leads to hitting pattern altitude in podunk outstations in less than 12 seconds and a crazy pitch over at altitude capture if you engaged the autopilot because the plane can’t retract the flaps fast enough so you either climb like a rocket or you blow through flap speeds.

So most of us wind up breaking procedure and not using the GA power and hoping we don’t have to explain that choice to a procedure/SOP stickler Fed or Chief Pilot.

It would be nice if we had an approved soft GA procedure.
 

Autothrust Blue

"I'll take your case."
And then you have dumb company procedures and SOPs where you are supposed to use GA thrust on all go arounds. If you didn’t and something went wrong, maybe not even related to the GA but a review of events leads to “hey you did a GA without following our procedure of full GA power”, your career is at risk.

Meanwhile, full GA thrust at full flaps leads to hitting pattern altitude in podunk outstations in less than 12 seconds and a crazy pitch over at altitude capture if you engaged the autopilot because the plane can’t retract the flaps fast enough so you either climb like a rocket or you blow through flap speeds.

So most of us wind up breaking procedure and not using the GA power and hoping we don’t have to explain that choice to a procedure/SOP stickler Fed or Chief Pilot.

It would be nice if we had an approved soft GA procedure.
Indeed.

Well, no sane outfit should crucify you for flying the airplane. We *have* to select TOGA thrust at least momentarily to get all the magic to magic properly, but I don’t see anything wrong, even on airplanes not equipped with soft go around, on promptly selecting thrust that is appropriate for conditions. Airbus recommend selecting TOGA then climb thrust on aircraft not equipped as situationally appropriate.

Airbus did a nice article on this in Safety First; there is a difference between discontinuing an approach and an honest to goodness go-around. They used, if memory serves, the altitude selected in the FCU (MCP, GP, whatever your jet calls it) as the dividing line, which seems sensible to me.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
And then you have dumb company procedures and SOPs where you are supposed to use GA thrust on all go arounds. If you didn’t and something went wrong, maybe not even related to the GA but a review of events leads to “hey you did a GA without following our procedure of full GA power”, your career is at risk.

Meanwhile, full GA thrust at full flaps leads to hitting pattern altitude in podunk outstations in less than 12 seconds and a crazy pitch over at altitude capture if you engaged the autopilot because the plane can’t retract the flaps fast enough so you either climb like a rocket or you blow through flap speeds.

So most of us wind up breaking procedure and not using the GA power and hoping we don’t have to explain that choice to a procedure/SOP stickler Fed or Chief Pilot.

It would be nice if we had an approved soft GA procedure.
Agreed. Fly the plane and use what you need. I had no need for full GA thrust, and thus, didn't use it.

Indeed.

We *have* to select TOGA thrust at least momentarily to get all the magic to magic properly, but I don’t see anything wrong, even on airplanes not equipped with soft go around, on promptly selecting thrust that is appropriate for conditions. Airbus recommend selecting TOGA then climb thrust on aircraft not equipped as situationally appropriate.
That's all TOGA does for our older jets: gives the FD cues. But on a visual approach, I turn off the FD anyway (am a fan of decluttering useless crap). If I need to go around.......when it comes to pitch and bank, fly the freaking airplane and set both to where is appropriate for what you need to do; same with thrust. Hell, day VMC go around to entering the traffic pattern should be able to nearly all be done by *gasp* reference to outside the plane anyway (the horror!), and not to magenta crap telling you where you need to place the nose.
 

Cherokee_Cruiser

Well-Known Member
On the Bus you have to go to TOGA on the go around to sequence the box and to enter go around mode. Only a couple of our newer 321s have the soft go around mode. My understanding is we do a GA like normal anyway. RNPs get an interrupted approach go around if above MA altitude and until the MAP, with speed pulled to 165 kts.

And mikeD, the 737 has had 2 crashes on go around because a 737 pitch up/pilot tendency to trim full nose down. The Russian Tarstan and flyDubai in Russia.
 

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
On the go around thing, I don’t mind them.

It’s something we have to brief at least once a pairing, something I’ll verbally review when the weather is crappy or when my spidey-sense tells me that @NovemberEcho’s cousins in the tower cab have us sequenced tightly and preceding traffic is probably going to I miss the high speed.

But on approach into Daytona Beach, nasty un-forecast convective weather to the south, moving north with not a lot of loiter... wait, that’s a story best left for “Beers With Uncle Derg”. Never mind! :)
 

Cherokee_Cruiser

Well-Known Member
Threat assessment. If you’re on the active, you have a massive threat of getting smacked into. If you’re on a taxiway, you have a larger threat of rewarding bad behavior.
Keep your bathrooms locked. They’ll be forced to go back and sit down. No point stopping on a taxiway and holding up the airport either. I’m surprised Delta doesn’t.

The lawyers and industry need to adopt and accept that if the seatbelt sign is on, and you are up and about, anything that happens is solely on you (the passenger). You can’t fix stupid. Anyway, follow your FOM guidance and you can’t go wrong. That’s true for anyone at any airline.
 

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
I have no idea if they do or do not, anything that happens operationally behind that locked cockpit door are things I don’t deeply concern myself with unless it’s comfort or safety.

Edit - I was on a long flight where the purser flipped the ‘occupied’ signs on the forward lavatories about 45 minutes from landing because he didn’t want people loitering around the area, before initial descent, but people (including myself) quickly learned that it was just a ploy and to just give the door a tap to see if it was truly occupied. It’s not a cure-all.
 

Jordan93

Well-Known Member
If you have to go, you have to go. I never understand why some people are Nazis about this. If we’re getting close to take off and people are still getting up, I usually make a PA that says something like, “everyone needs to be seated otherwise we’ll lose our takeoff spot and be taxiing around for another 45 minutes.” No need to lock the door. Would you rather have them piss themselves and have to call hazmat?
 

Cherokee_Cruiser

Well-Known Member
I have no idea if they do or do not, anything that happens operationally behind that locked cockpit door are things I don’t deeply concern myself with unless it’s comfort or safety.

Edit - I was on a long flight where the purser flipped the ‘occupied’ signs on the forward lavatories about 45 minutes from landing because he didn’t want people loitering around the area, before initial descent, but people (including myself) quickly learned that it was just a ploy and to just give the door a tap to see if it was truly occupied. It’s not a cure-all.
If it wasn’t in my FOM or the FA version of their FOM, I’d put an end to that. Not on ma plane you don’t just go inventing rules that aren’t the norm. At VX we never locked lavs. I got my routine, 10 prior to push I make the welcome aboard PA from the galley handset (come at me bro :)) and then hit the pre-departure lav. No problem at VX, but at AS I notice the lav is locked by then. No big deal, the FA says no one in there so I just unlock and go. Messin up my routine :)
 

Cherokee_Cruiser

Well-Known Member
If you have to go, you have to go. I never understand why some people are Nazis about this. If we’re getting close to take off and people are still getting up, I usually make a PA that says something like, “everyone needs to be seated otherwise we’ll lose our takeoff spot and be taxiing around for another 45 minutes.” No need to lock the door. Would you rather have them piss themselves and have to call hazmat?
Policy says door locked from pushback to 10k ft, and 10k ft to gate. Should I tell them to break their version of FOM (FAM)? I’m sure they have discretion in an emergency. Btw, I also noticed locked lavs on United. Don’t know if it’s policy or rogue FAs.
 

Jordan93

Well-Known Member
Policy says door locked from pushback to 10k ft, and 10k ft to gate. Should I tell them to break their version of FOM (FAM)? I’m sure they have discretion in an emergency. Btw, I also noticed locked lavs on United. Don’t know if it’s policy or rogue FAs.
I guess you’re cleaning up piss then;). 9E doesn’t. My parents rode on OO and they said the doors were locked below 10K. Idont think I’ve seen 1 FA deny someone the toilet below 10K. In fact, a few weeks ago, someone on my flight jumped in the lav right before we were about to land and had lots of constipation according to the FA. We exited the runway and waited until he sat down. No mess for anyone to clean up. Again, if you have to go, you have to go. You’re not going to listen to anyone.
 
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