CommutAir Furlough (Edit: Mesa is now as well.)

Max Power

Well-Known Member
Wonder if they furloughed any of those non seniority list sim instructors...
was always fun running those names thru the scab list.
That is being worked on as well. The offline instructor thing has always been contentious.
Supposedly there would still have been furloughs, perhaps just as many, even if everyone took the 55-hour line. I don't know for sure as I haven't seen the information the MEC had.



It seems like everyone still naively thinks this will be over in a few months and we'll be back to normal soon. It looks like the economy is entering a full-blown depression and I don't see demand for air travel ever returning to 2019 levels, at least not in my lifetime. As I've said before I don't see C5 surviving much longer if I turn out to be right about this.
I’ve been at C5 (unfortunately) for 6 years. I’ve seen the company shoot itself in the foot and come back dancing. I’ve watched UA shaft the company (de-hub CLE was the worst) and it still comes back. But I don’t think we come back from this. I want to be wrong , let’s hope I am.
 

bimmerphile

SuperCritical™ Member
That is being worked on as well. The offline instructor thing has always been contentious.
Worked on? It should have been worked out in the initial negotiations, those guys were making 100k plus, that's 2 FOs salary. Should have been the first ones to go if there's no more "training for growth" required.
 

Hammertime

Well-Known Member
@Seggy Man, Stay out of other people's business. Your ability to read sucks. It was stated that the choice was furloughs and a massive concession on MMG and benefits. Or, what the MEC negotiated. You don't know this company, or the MEC. I do. I trust that they did what they could. This is a tough time. Tearing down bargaining units online is divisive.
 

jtrain609

Uniting the black vote.
Supposedly there would still have been furloughs, perhaps just as many, even if everyone took the 55-hour line. I don't know for sure as I haven't seen the information the MEC had.



It seems like everyone still naively thinks this will be over in a few months and we'll be back to normal soon. It looks like the economy is entering a full-blown depression and I don't see demand for air travel ever returning to 2019 levels, at least not in my lifetime. As I've said before I don't see C5 surviving much longer if I turn out to be right about this.
I've lived through two of these before, and we were saying stuff like this after September 11th and the 2008 crash, and everything eventually bounces back.
 

Max Power

Well-Known Member
Worked on? It should have been worked out in the initial negotiations, those guys were making 100k plus, that's 2 FOs salary. Should have been the first ones to go if there's no more "training for growth" required.
I was never a fan of it at all, but it's not like we were given a chance to have a say no. C5 said "Sure JH, here's our training dept. Go ahead and run our training dept. like FSI. Bring a bunch of instructors with no airline experience, no 145 experience or both to train people on our airplanes" My transition to the 145 out of the Dash was one of the worst experiences I've ever had as a pilot.

Look, I've got issues with a lot of things done and not done by the MEC. Our MEC has had a rough go since the expansion with the 145's began due to constant turnover and change. But I don't have an issue with how they handled this in the short timeframe. This deal was going to be a crap sandwich and furloughs were always part of any deal.
 

Yakob

Grand Prognosticator Nominee
I've lived through two of these before, and we were saying stuff like this after September 11th and the 2008 crash, and everything eventually bounces back.
Sure, but the drop in bookings with this crisis is even worse than what was seen after 9/11. Steve Mnuchin recently said 20% unemployment is likely which has not been seen since the Great Depression- during the 2008 recession unemployment peaked at around 10%. And even if this doesn't turn out to be any worse than the 9/11 aftermath and the 2008 crash, both of those caused numerous airlines go out of business.
 

Apophis

Resident Iconoclast
Sure, but the drop in bookings with this crisis is even worse than what was seen after 9/11. Steve Mnuchin recently said 20% unemployment is likely which has not been seen since the Great Depression- during the 2008 recession unemployment peaked at around 10%. And even if this doesn't turn out to be any worse than the 9/11 aftermath and the 2008 crash, both of those caused numerous airlines go out of business.
Are you okay? Honestly.

You constantly have these dystopian predictions and just overall are incredibly negative when it comes to this stuff. If it isn’t COVID-19 killing the entire industry forever, it’s automation stealing all of our jobs and rendering us all unemployed in the very near future.

I don’t get it.
 

bimmerphile

SuperCritical™ Member
I was never a fan of it at all, but it's not like we were given a chance to have a say no. C5 said "Sure JH, here's our training dept. Go ahead and run our training dept. like FSI. Bring a bunch of instructors with no airline experience, no 145 experience or both to train people on our airplanes" My transition to the 145 out of the Dash was one of the worst experiences I've ever had as a pilot.

Look, I've got issues with a lot of things done and not done by the MEC. Our MEC has had a rough go since the expansion with the 145's began due to constant turnover and change. But I don't have an issue with how they handled this in the short timeframe. This deal was going to be a crap sandwich and furloughs were always part of any deal.
I just have a hard time thinking how this could have escaped the imagination of the MEC while literally everyone else was eating a turd sandwich. Why do these jabronis get to keep their salaries while line pilots are furloughed? It's not like it wasn't a point of contention for years.
 

Seggy

Well-Known Member
@Seggy Man, Stay out of other people's business. Your ability to read sucks. It was stated that the choice was furloughs and a massive concession on MMG and benefits. Or, what the MEC negotiated. You don't know this company, or the MEC. I do. I trust that they did what they could. This is a tough time. Tearing down bargaining units online is divisive.
I am very familiar with their former MEC folks, all exceptional. It just would have been better to keep everyone on property even with the cuts, IMHO. Divisive is not trying to get everyone a lower paying line to keep everyone on property.

I wish everyone the best there.
 
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Hammertime

Well-Known Member
I am very familiar with their former MEC folks, all exceptional. It just would have been better to keep everyone on property even with the cuts, IMHO. Divisive is not trying to get everyone a lower paying line to keep everyone on property.

I wish everyone the best there.
Why is there no beer emoji? Should be a thing. Anyway, thanks. I know the current MEC well. They aren't guys who play politics, or get out there and "press the flesh," so they're often misunderstood. Those that know them, know they work really hard. They were dealt a bad hand, and handled it as best they could. From the blast mails, I gather that furloughs were unavoidable. By adding in the long call lines, they avoided furloughs, AND significant contractual concessions.
 

Yakob

Grand Prognosticator Nominee
Are you okay? Honestly.

You constantly have these dystopian predictions and just overall are incredibly negative when it comes to this stuff. If it isn’t COVID-19 killing the entire industry forever, it’s automation stealing all of our jobs and rendering us all unemployed in the very near future.

I don’t get it.
Yeah, based on all your postings about Covid-19 itself I think it's safe to say you are naively optimistic about the situation, so if one of us is out of touch with reality it's probably you.

It's simply a fact that 20% unemployment has been predicted by the Secretary of the Treasury as a result of this crisis, and that airlines have already seen a steeper decline in bookings than what was observed after 9/11. I doubt many airline tickets will be sold in an economy with 20% unemployment, and even in a best case scenario where we get Covid-19 under control soon the memory of it will stick for a long time. For many years to come people will be uncomfortable about being in an airliner cabin with scores of strangers.

Automation is coming as well, although we pilots may be safe from it directly, since our industry is so heavily regulated. But we will still be affected by the decline in consumer demand from other people's jobs being automated away. To top it all off, if there's as steep a downturn as it looks like there will be, that will encourage employers to cut costs by automating. As a result a good number of jobs that are lost in the downturn may not come back in the recovery.
 

Inverted25

Well-Known Member
Yeah, based on all your postings about Covid-19 itself I think it's safe to say you are naively optimistic about the situation, so if one of us is out of touch with reality it's probably you.

It's simply a fact that 20% unemployment has been predicted by the Secretary of the Treasury as a result of this crisis, and that airlines have already seen a steeper decline in bookings than what was observed after 9/11. I doubt many airline tickets will be sold in an economy with 20% unemployment, and even in a best case scenario where we get Covid-19 under control soon the memory of it will stick for a long time. For many years to come people will be uncomfortable about being in an airliner cabin with scores of strangers.

Automation is coming as well, although we pilots may be safe from it directly, since our industry is so heavily regulated. But we will still be affected by the decline in consumer demand from other people's jobs being automated away. To top it all off, if there's as steep a downturn as it looks like there will be, that will encourage employers to cut costs by automating. As a result a good number of jobs that are lost in the downturn may not come back in the recovery.
You got multiple people pointing out how extreme you always go on things. I seriously think you need to see a therapist. And I am
Not saying that to be mean. Im honestly concerned for your mental well being


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Yakob

Grand Prognosticator Nominee
You got multiple people pointing out how extreme you always go on things. I seriously think you need to see a therapist. And I am
Not saying that to be mean. Im honestly concerned for your mental well being


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I remember last week you scoffed at my prediction of a recession from this pandemic. Now with 20% unemployment a distinct possibility, it appears I was short-sighted in predicting a recession rather than a full-blown depression. Unfortunately it's looking like my predictions are going to be accurate, and while you may think I go too extreme, these are certainly extreme times since there hasn't been a pandemic like this in decades.
 

GypsyPilot

Well-Known Member
I remember last week you scoffed at my prediction of a recession from this pandemic. Now with 20% unemployment a distinct possibility, it appears I was short-sighted in predicting a recession rather than a full-blown depression. Unfortunately it's looking like my predictions are going to be accurate, and while you may think I go too extreme, these are certainly extreme times since there hasn't been a pandemic like this in decades.
So during this new Great Depression, with resulting low worker wages, companies are also going to invest billions of non-existent dollars on automation?
 

mwflyer

Well-Known Member
Why would you doubt that? They hold 40% of C5 and a certain amount of XJT(?). We are not in an optimal position in this compared to XJT, whom they could likely shift flying to. And that 40% stake as well as the money put into C5 is nothing compared to the billions they're losing and going to lose over this.
Good point. I forgot that UA owned part of C5.
 
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