Comfy in IMC

Roger Roger

Paid to sleep, fly for fun
#81
I've read a lot of posts from 121 pilots that say ifr/instruments are the toughest part of training at the airlines and what washes people out the most often.

What, specifically, causes the most problems and what can one do before getting to 121 training to be as prepared as possible?
I haven’t done 121, but from what I hear it’s 1. Lack of experience managing autoflight systems and 2. Shaky basic attitude instrument flying
 

86BravoPapa

Well-Known Member
#82
I haven’t done 121, but from what I hear it’s 1. Lack of experience managing autoflight systems and 2. Shaky basic attitude instrument flying
Managing autoflight systems, well, as a pilot new to aircraft with advanced systems not found in most time building type aircraft reminds me of a summation an old pilot once gave me of starting out in aviation.

"It goes like this he said: You get your commercial, you try to get a job, they tell you you need experience, that's why I'm trying to get this job you'll think to yourself, and thus the vicious cycle begins."
 

TWP

Well-Known Member
#85
I've read a lot of posts from 121 pilots that say ifr/instruments are the toughest part of training at the airlines and what washes people out the most often.

What, specifically, causes the most problems and what can one do before getting to 121 training to be as prepared as possible?
It’s mainly the fact that you’re learning a new very complex aircraft and operation. In a severely compressed timeframe you’re trying to master all kinds of flows, maneuvers and profiles. You simply are overloaded and don’t have the time to “sort of oh man maybe was it this” your way through an approach plate.

Not having instruments down cold bogs you down even further in an already overloaded training environment.
 

milleR

Well-Known Member
#86
Not specific to 121, but in any high performance turbine aircraft things are just plain happening faster. Get behind the 8 ball doing 90 knots in a Seminole isn't too big a deal because you have time to fix it. Fall behind doing 180 knots or more in a jet or turboprop and things get a little more difficult. Combine that with unfamiliarity with the avionics and/or rusty instrument flying skills and things get ugly quick.
 

JEP

Malko In Charge
Staff member
#88
......

So what helped you or when did you notice a change?
When did I notice....? On my IFR long cross-coumtry. Seriously....It was 3.4 hours long and 1.6 was in IMC....After that though, I never had any IMC in training....At one point I jsut left my foggles on. made it easier....
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
#89
Not specific to 121, but in any high performance turbine aircraft things are just plain happening faster. Get behind the 8 ball doing 90 knots in a Seminole isn't too big a deal because you have time to fix it. Fall behind doing 180 knots or more in a jet or turboprop and things get a little more difficult. Combine that with unfamiliarity with the avionics and/or rusty instrument flying skills and things get ugly quick.
300kt instrument approach penetration for an HI-ILS/TACAN with an arc penetration track descent, no slowing until turning final onto the intermediate segment and configuring. Not having lead turns points for radial-to-arc or arc-to-radial mentally computed and executed at the correct time, and you can go from being 10 miles ahead of the jet, to 10 miles behind the jet in an instant.

That "admin stuff" had to be second nature, because there were so many more important things one had to know and have brain power for in a fighter jet.
 
#90
I've read a lot of posts from 121 pilots that say ifr/instruments are the toughest part of training at the airlines and what washes people out the most often.
What, specifically, causes the most problems and what can one do before getting to 121 training to be as prepared as possible?
A few have already posted about it: but my sim partner was "let go" mainly to do with lack of system knowledge. (when to engage and what). The guy who did his check ride before me busted (for a few reasons) but what sealed the deal was the lack of system knowledge and busted an altitude on the LOC approach.

My next airline, no one was fired (one should have been...) but huge issues from everyone of the instructors and checkairmeu state is new-hires not knowing when to use what level of automation. @Autothrust Blue can give a better prep today.
Online when I fly with new guys (because that who a junior CA flies with) I've seen a few times where the other dude gets behind the airplane, due to lack of autopilot situational awareness.

The IFR skills seem to be ok, since 99% of what we do is SIDs-> en route->STARS then vectors to a precision approach. No matter who you are, unless you stay in the books, your IFR knowledge will degrade with time.
 

Autothrust Blue

Ultra-low-cost member
#91
A few have already posted about it: but my sim partner was "let go" mainly to do with lack of system knowledge. (when to engage and what). The guy who did his check ride before me busted (for a few reasons) but what sealed the deal was the lack of system knowledge and busted an altitude on the LOC approach.

My next airline, no one was fired (one should have been...) but huge issues from everyone of the instructors and checkairmeu state is new-hires not knowing when to use what level of automation. @Autothrust Blue can give a better prep today.
Online when I fly with new guys (because that who a junior CA flies with) I've seen a few times where the other dude gets behind the airplane, due to lack of autopilot situational awareness.

The IFR skills seem to be ok, since 99% of what we do is SIDs-> en route->STARS then vectors to a precision approach. No matter who you are, unless you stay in the books, your IFR knowledge will degrade with time.
It is critically important to (1) be able to operate the airplane at all automation levels and (2) be able to select an appropriate level of automation for the given situation.

(Sometimes that means CAT 3 DUAL and sometimes that means autopilot and flight directors off.)
 
Top