Colgan Reduction Conference Call Highlights

mjb00123

Well-Known Member
Everyone has the right to there own opinion when it comes to 500hr. Wonderpilots! IMO my stance will always be to fly 135 for a good year and then tell me how much hair has grown on your chest since you started.
Don't get me wrong its a 50-50 mix of good and bad low time pilots. Heck even in the NBA their are a few stars like Kobe and Lebron that made it without playing at the college level(135 flying) and turned out just fine.

Back to the thread, the sad thing that will be a result of all the low time hiring boom is that with all the layoffs coming at the end of the summer. Those guys will hurt the most because of their low time in a flooded pilot market. :(
 

KLB

Well-Known Member
Well what if you're a 135 freight dog in California.... all you get is the dreaded morning fog.... None of the tough stuff that these other newbies also might not have seen by the time they start...
I don't know. I picked up icing in those parts back about 2 months ago while dodging thunderstorms and going through a good bit of turbulance. Plus shooting an ILS to mins and having to do an actual missed approach procedure every other day is good fun.:)
 

kellwolf

Piece of Trash
Also, if the FAA is over seeing the training departments in the 121 industry, and thus putting these 500hr pilots in the right seat, then I'll take their word over the internet.

Having gone through initial new hire, FO PC and now upgrade training, I won't. Wanna know why? B/c at PCL at least, the FAA doesn't really have much of a clue what our training dept does. I'll point ya to our overrun in TVC. One of the things the CA said was "I didn't wanna jam on the brakes too hard." Why? B/c that's what the training dept said. Don't jam on the brakes on a contaminated runway, they wanted us to ease on them. The FAA's response was "You're telling them what? What do you think anti-skid is for?" FAA had no clue what was being taught. I'd wager that our IPO doesn't know much of what's in our manuals either. The FAA is just like every other government agency: overworked, undermanned and stretched to the point of breaking. They CAN'T keep tabs on the training at every airline. Most of the time, they only time they change something is after an incident or accident.

So, based on my experience, the fact that the FAA oversees a training program in the 121 world doesn't really change my opinion.
 

SpiceWeasel

Tre Kronor
I don't know. I picked up icing in those parts back about 2 months ago while dodging thunderstorms and going through a good bit of turbulance. Plus shooting an ILS to mins and having to do an actual missed approach procedure every other day is good fun.:)
I picked up ice in California too (over Lake Hughes of all things).... had to descend as we couldn't stay up in our 172 with 3 folks. Big deal? Didn't really feel like it.... descended with plenty of terrain clearance available going to Bakersfield. I do agree though that it is fun to be able to take off into the soup and stay in it until your on approach.
 

Teller1900

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure if I'd call it arrogance, but it's surely not the most "PC" thing ever written on this board. I don't think he wants anyone to lose their job, but it's not a tragedy that the 500hr guy is no longer getting his door beat down by the airlines.
:yeahthat:

Just cause it's not PC, doesn't mean it was wrong. I was one of those less-than-500 hr "wonderpilots," and TNT had the displeasure of teaching me how to fly the airline way while fighting LGA traffic. If he sounds arrogant, consider it well earned experience...he knows what he's talking about.

Like mjb00123 said, this is pretty much just market correction. It sucks that it has to happen, but it was pretty much inevitable that the bottom was going to drop out at some point. And that point is now. I'm working with a lot of the guys who are going to be printing resumes in November, and it really sucks, they're all great guys, and they just so happen to be coming in at a bad time. The industry went to one extreme for a while, now it's going the other way...as it has done many times before.
 

beechpilot

Well-Known Member
:yeahthat:

Just cause it's not PC, doesn't mean it was wrong. I was one of those less-than-500 hr "wonderpilots," and TNT had the displeasure of teaching me how to fly the airline way while fighting LGA traffic. If he sounds arrogant, consider it well earned experience...he knows what he's talking about.

Like mjb00123 said, this is pretty much just market correction. It sucks that it has to happen, but it was pretty much inevitable that the bottom was going to drop out at some point. And that point is now. I'm working with a lot of the guys who are going to be printing resumes in November, and it really sucks, they're all great guys, and they just so happen to be coming in at a bad time. The industry went to one extreme for a while, now it's going the other way...as it has done many times before.
:yeahthat:
 

greaper007

Well-Known Member
Is 300 hours probably too low to sit right seat in a 121 cockpit? Probably. Is $20,000 a year too low to pay someone with significantly more experience? Absolutely.

The airlines didn't have to hire people at 300 hours, there just weren't many people lining up to fly for 20,000 a year. Pay a live able wage and I completely agree with you. I'm not sure why someone would want to spend all the years it would take to get 2000+ hours only to sit right seat making less than some McDonalds workers. The airlines got what they paid for.
 

ANG135drvr

Well-Known Member
Is 300 hours probably too low to sit right seat in a 121 cockpit? Probably. Is $20,000 a year too low to pay someone with significantly more experience? Absolutely.

The airlines didn't have to hire people at 300 hours, there just weren't many people lining up to fly for 20,000 a year. Pay a live able wage and I completely agree with you. I'm not sure why someone would want to spend all the years it would take to get 2000+ hours only to sit right seat making less than some McDonalds workers. The airlines got what they paid for.
:yeahthat:AbsoFreakinLutely
 

zmiller4

Well-Known Member
Is 300 hours probably too low to sit right seat in a 121 cockpit? Probably. Is $20,000 a year too low to pay someone with significantly more experience? Absolutely.

The airlines didn't have to hire people at 300 hours, there just weren't many people lining up to fly for 20,000 a year. Pay a live able wage and I completely agree with you. I'm not sure why someone would want to spend all the years it would take to get 2000+ hours only to sit right seat making less than some McDonalds workers. The airlines got what they paid for.
Which is why there absolutely needs to be FAR-mandated 121 SIC minimums.
 

surreal1221

Well-Known Member
Is 300 hours probably too low to sit right seat in a 121 cockpit? Probably. Is $20,000 a year too low to pay someone with significantly more experience? Absolutely.

The airlines didn't have to hire people at 300 hours, there just weren't many people lining up to fly for 20,000 a year. Pay a live able wage and I completely agree with you. I'm not sure why someone would want to spend all the years it would take to get 2000+ hours only to sit right seat making less than some McDonalds workers. The airlines got what they paid for.
Afrigginmen. . .

Which is why there absolutely needs to be FAR-mandated 121 SIC minimums.
Since you quoted greaper's reference to the pay situation. . .do you really think that by having FAA mandated 121 SIC minimums that we as pilots would be able to negotiate higher pay rates in the regional market place?

For some reason I sincerely doubt that. . .our managements have grown significantly accustomed to paying us the bare minimum that we will negotiate and accept. Sad shame, but it's the truth . . .and nothing the FAA does is going to really help in that regard.

So what - now we scream "2000 hour pilots deserve MORE!111?"

I don't know. . .maybe it'd work, and I suppose we'll never know until it happens. . .but until then, I really doubt we could expect our respective companies to increase pay at all levels for having FAA mandated 121 SIC minimums.

Further, why would the FAA want to hinder the ability of their largest "customer" to provide services to the flying public. The FAA is as crooked as they get.
 

dingo222

Well-Known Member
sorry, but I had an FO last week get all excited because he was about to shoot his first approach in "actual". 121 is not the time to be doing that. He was a 400 hr pilot. I don't blame him for taking the job. THe opportunity was there and he took it. It's the industry and the pay that is causing a lot if this mess. Regardless, unless you have come from some structured training program like the military, 400 hrs is not enough experience.
 

zmiller4

Well-Known Member
Since you quoted greaper's reference to the pay situation. . .do you really think that by having FAA mandated 121 SIC minimums that we as pilots would be able to negotiate higher pay rates in the regional market place?
I don't know that we would be able to negotiate higher pay immediately, but I am pretty sure that allowing management to use 250hr commercial pilots as FO's as half an airline crew is a major barrier to better compensation (not to mention the willingness to drop 10k on a "jet course").

If someone graduates from high school, drops money at ATP for four or five months and goes straight to an airline, I don't necessarily know that they deserve more pay than they'd be getting right now. If that same person instructs/builds up experience somehow up to, say, ATP mins, their experience is worth something.

For some reason I sincerely doubt that. . .our managements have grown significantly accustomed to paying us the bare minimum that we will negotiate and accept. Sad shame, but it's the truth . . .and nothing the FAA does is going to really help in that regard.
During the hiring boom over the last couple of years, many airlines felt that there were a shortage of pilots and offered signing bonuses, etc. (There wasn't really a shortage of pilots, just not enough qualified folks willing to work for crap wages). If we raise the minimum qualifications even more, there won't be the option of having low-timers fill the seats...and that might cause the airlines to raise pay.

So what - now we scream "2000 hour pilots deserve MORE!111?"
Well, they do. They bring more experience to the table. Isn't that how it generally works in non-screwed-up jobs--more experience equals more money?

Further, why would the FAA want to hinder the ability of their largest "customer" to provide services to the flying public. The FAA is as crooked as they get.
Agreed...which is why nothing will happen unless 1) a bunch of people die or 2) ALPA treats this as the important issue it is and starts lobbying folks.

I know it's a pipe dream, but I think it's a win-win for pilots. You get more experienced new-hires and the potential for better pay.
 

surreal1221

Well-Known Member
So where do we start?

:)

Further, I wouldn't put all of this on ALPA to spearhead and develop (especially if you're not part of an ALPA represented pilot group). There still are (unfortunately in my opinion) airlines that are not represented by ALPA.

;) Hopefully that'll change soon. . .hopefully.
 

sherpa

Well-Known Member
I also have noticed, with great levels of similarity that low time FO's lack a level of respect which almost becomes rude. There is a diffrence in being ready at the controls, and then, covering them physicaly touching them.

The auto pilot in the Q sucks.
The Q auto pilot couldn't pass an ATP ride! sux indeed.

I have noticed that some of the low time FO's can be a bit cocky at times and have confidence that far exceeds their skills.



sorry, but I had an FO last week get all excited because he was about to shoot his first approach in "actual". 121 is not the time to be doing that. He was a 400 hr pilot. I don't blame him for taking the job. THe opportunity was there and he took it. It's the industry and the pay that is causing a lot if this mess. Regardless, unless you have come from some structured training program like the military, 400 hrs is not enough experience.
I started 121 with about 4 hours imc. I learned in the seat. To tell you the truth, I probably should have had more experience. But some good cap's helped me out. I now try to help out the new guys.
 

SmitteyB

Well-Known Member
The Q auto pilot couldn't pass an ATP ride! sux indeed.

I have noticed that some of the low time FO's can be a bit cocky at times and have confidence that far exceeds their skills.





I started 121 with about 4 hours imc. I learned in the seat. To tell you the truth, I probably should have had more experience. But some good cap's helped me out. I now try to help out the new guys.
I had 25 hours actual instrument when I started and I got CHASTISED about being inexperienced. I was....

I now have 175.
 

TUCKnTRUCK

That guy
I had nearly 200 hours IMC when i came here... now it's greater than that. I had tons of winter experience, mountains etc...

The Q is pretty much the first thing I have flown with automation of any sort. It's big, complex, and picky. We do international ops... which i have never done before. We fly into DCA, which i have never done before. There is a lot that i don't know about flying.. and i have 10x the experience of some of the guys who got hired this summer.

I have 121 experience, in the 1900 though. If I am concerned about day to day operations, keeping people safe, and doing it right, then the guy next to me better feel the same way. I have a feeling a lot of the guys close the cockpit door, and forget what's back there. The assumed Liability of the Q is nearly 450 Million dollars. I personally think a person has reached the proper mindset when they realize how much is riding on that airplane. 1 Q crash could, and most likely would destroy the company. Yet, i see some very young pilots, who's biggest emergency to date was a sick student in the back, treating it like it's another Seminole.

-Complacency-?

For the new-er FO's that think the Captains job is nothing more than a different seat and a larger pay check, Wait till you get your first flight off of CA IOE with a brand new FO. If they would pay me the same, but let me be an FO again, i would do it in a heartbeat.


I still don't think i have a lot of time in the clouds.

Back to topic, did you all catch the Memo's regarding reductions? I would love to watch GIA get an operation running in JHW, and JST. Winter is going to be one BIG surprise. Even in the news clippings, the airports, and DOT don't have great confidence.

I am hoping that they manage to farm out the flying and aircraft that they need. I also hope that they pull lines down to 75 hours credit, not block, so that additional crews will be required. In talks with some down there, I have heard they are trying to work 3 day trips at roughly 20 hours a trip, but CO schedules and EWR delays make it difficult. I really would hate to see anybody get canned. Before if it seemed like i was glad young guns were getting canned, i wasn't, just felt that the industry it returning to the normal. In 3-5 years time you will see another boom.
 

Airdale

Well-Known Member
I had nearly 200 hours IMC when i came here... now it's greater than that. I had tons of winter experience, mountains etc...

The Q is pretty much the first thing I have flown with automation of any sort. It's big, complex, and picky. We do international ops... which i have never done before. We fly into DCA, which i have never done before. There is a lot that i don't know about flying.. and i have 10x the experience of some of the guys who got hired this summer.

I have 121 experience, in the 1900 though. If I am concerned about day to day operations, keeping people safe, and doing it right, then the guy next to me better feel the same way. I have a feeling a lot of the guys close the cockpit door, and forget what's back there. The assumed Liability of the Q is nearly 450 Million dollars. I personally think a person has reached the proper mindset when they realize how much is riding on that airplane. 1 Q crash could, and most likely would destroy the company. Yet, i see some very young pilots, who's biggest emergency to date was a sick student in the back, treating it like it's another Seminole.

-Complacency-?

For the new-er FO's that think the Captains job is nothing more than a different seat and a larger pay check, Wait till you get your first flight off of CA IOE with a brand new FO. If they would pay me the same, but let me be an FO again, i would do it in a heartbeat.


I still don't think i have a lot of time in the clouds.

Back to topic, did you all catch the Memo's regarding reductions? I would love to watch GIA get an operation running in JHW, and JST. Winter is going to be one BIG surprise. Even in the news clippings, the airports, and DOT don't have great confidence.

I am hoping that they manage to farm out the flying and aircraft that they need. I also hope that they pull lines down to 75 hours credit, not block, so that additional crews will be required. In talks with some down there, I have heard they are trying to work 3 day trips at roughly 20 hours a trip, but CO schedules and EWR delays make it difficult. I really would hate to see anybody get canned. Before if it seemed like i was glad young guns were getting canned, i wasn't, just felt that the industry it returning to the normal. In 3-5 years time you will see another boom.
Sounds like you need to talk to your Chief Pilot.....
 

wick81

Well-Known Member
I did see the memo's on reductions, but i'm sure alot of people haven't because that website is so unorganized...everyday you have to search every link just to see if something new has been added. drives me nuts!!!:banghead:

ok..continue thread.
 

Cruise

Well-Known Member
I did see the memo's on reductions, but i'm sure alot of people haven't because that website is so unorganized...everyday you have to search every link just to see if something new has been added. drives me nuts!!!:banghead:

ok..continue thread.
UNorganization is a way of life around here...........I'm with you on the driving nuts. WTFO? This is supposed to be a professional organization. :whatever: ALTHOUGH, I must say, the dissemination of information has improved....SLIGHTLY (at best).
 

kellwolf

Piece of Trash
-Complacency-?
I think this is the biggest issue with lower time pilots. Some guys step from an airplane that they're completely comfortable in (say a Seminole or 172) into a Q400, CRJ, ERJ, whatever and have the same attitude. Most of the low time guys fly just fine, but it's the decision making that is seriously lacking. Something you might do with just you and your instructor (or even just you) in a Seminole is not something you'd do with 50+ people in the back. I had an FO a couple of weeks ago make a decision like that. I looked at him and said "Seriously? That's what you're thinking? Well, I disagree. We're doing this and here's why...." To his credit, he listened. There's some basic knowledge gaps out there in the low time guys. I try to fill in those gaps where I can, but when you've got a t-storm moving onto the field, you're running the fuel numbers in your head and trying to get a wx update for your alternate while the FO is flying the plane is NOT the time you need to turn back into an instructor. BTW, for those that say instructing sucks.....I think that job better prepared me for being a CA than being an FO for 2 years did.

For the new-er FO's that think the Captains job is nothing more than a different seat and a larger pay check, Wait till you get your first flight off of CA IOE with a brand new FO. If they would pay me the same, but let me be an FO again, i would do it in a heartbeat.
Only been a CA for a month and a half, and I agree 100%. The bigger pay is nice, but there's a reason it's there.
 
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