Close Call! (long)

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
Had a pretty close call this afternoon while giving an IPC to a fellow instructor. We were on an IFR flight plan getting vectors to a different airport after a missed approach. Level at 3,000, groundspeed of 190, so we were moving right along. I was head-down for a few seconds to pull out the plate for the next approach, and when I looked up, there was a 172RG at 10-11 o'clock, our altitude, in a hard right evasive turn away from us.

We missed by probably about 1000 feet laterally. I don't think we would have missed if he hadn't seen us, because by the time I saw them, it was too late. Also, I later talked to the other instructor (we're based at the same airport), and he agreed it was way close. He also didn't see us until after his student said something. Both of us being in the right seats made it difficult for us to spot each other.

Weather wasn't IFR, but it wasn't exactly a clear day either. Flight vis. was probably 6 miles, under a 10,000 ft. broken/overcast layer.

The controller never once pointed out the other aircraft. The only aircraft he pointed out were "1 or 2 VFR in the pattern, and one on the NDB approach inbound," all of which I had in sight. I not-so-kindly let the controller know what happened after I took a couple of deep breaths, and asked him if he had the other aircraft on radar. He didn't answer my question, but said "I told you there were numerous aircraft in the pattern." I pointed out that a.) we weren't in the pattern- we were 5nm northeast of the field, and b.) we were 1000 ft. above pattern altitude. That was the end of the converation, and the next vector we got was from a different controller, so he must have been taken off position after that. Then, after the next approach, the new controller said, "uh, are you guys supposed to be VFR or IFR?" I don't know what the hell was going on over there, but they were sure out of it (we were IFR).

It was one of those things where it happened too fast to be scared at the time. Later on, I was like, damn...that was close. Followed by a bunch of morbid thoughts like, "who would tell my parents, I'd hate for it to be my • boss", "who would tell my friend who is already driving down to visit this weekend," and "I wonder how long my truck would sit in the parking lot." Oh yeah, and "dammit, my mom would see the stack of playboys on my bookshelf."


Anyways, sorry for rambling on, but I thought it would be a good reminder for everyone to be careful out there, and keep your head on a swivel- its NOT a "big sky"!!!
 

xdashdriver

Well-Known Member
Sounds like the controller was relieved by his supervisor. A classic situation for you to say "give me a number I can call when I get on the ground" Make them sweat for a change.

Ray
 

rausda27

Well-Known Member
I have had a few close ones, mainly in the pattern when the TIS isn't that valuable..glad you lived to teach another day buddy...
 

sigmanu499

New Member
While I was doing my ins. training we were at about 4,000 around VNY and out of nowhere the CFII said "break right" and he turned the yoke so hard. I was under the hood and had no idea what was going on. After, we leveled out again, he showed me the piper that had turned into us. It looked like less then 2000 feet when I saw it(by this time we were going in away from him). Then socal app calls us to comfirm we are still on the assigned heading. I guess he saw us turn. Never once did socal say anything about the traffic. I know the traffic had his mode c on because we were with in the 30nm of LAX. Its true controllers mess up. So to stay safe always watch for your own traffic.
 

aloft

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
Followed by a bunch of morbid thoughts like... "dammit, my mom would see the stack of playboys on my bookshelf."


[/ QUOTE ]As we all learned on a recent episode of Coupling, it's vital to have a "porn buddy" to, um, "sanitize" your pad in the event of your untimely demise. It's a win-win situation as you're saved from the embarrassment of your parents discovering your taste for, say, lesbian midget action, and your buddy gets a free boost to his collection!
 

DanTheMan

New Member
I had a bad experience with SoCal around Van Nuys too. We were inbound on the ILS 16R into VNY(I was under the hood), and just as the app controler is switching us to the tower, my CFII starts yelling about a twin cessna overtaking us from above. He couldn't have been more than 200 feet directly above us. We informed SoCal of this and he says calmly "He has you insight, switch to the tower." What a JACKASS!! He lets a guy overtake us on the ILS??? without telling us??? what is that???
 

E_Dawg

Moderator
I dunno how embarrassed you'll be when you're dead... but that is a good idea


The real trouble is figuring out how to make sure your buddy finds out first!

ESF good to hear you haven't posted your last yet... you'll always have that image of the plane burned into your brain
 

viper548

Well-Known Member
I'd fill out a NASA form, that's the kind of info they really want to hear about. I'd also give a call to the approach facility and talk to the supervisor. At the least, get your name on a list of people that get freebies for busting airspace or a clearence....


The porn buddy thing is an AWESOME plan...Might be wise to have the same buddy make sure all the girls you're dating (guy's for gay_pilot) at the same time dont show up at the funeral at the same time and start talking to each other.
 

triplec76

Well-Known Member
I dont know exactly how other approach facilities run their operations, but when I was an IFR student and practicing approaches in VFR, they ALWAYS stated to maintain visual seperation from all aircraft (maintain VFR). We would always put "practice approaches" in the remarks section of our IFR flight plan, so that might have made the difference.

However, I have run into problems like that where I thought the traffic was close enough the controller should have said something. I dont know if they just dont see them, or they assume (which isnt in the ATC vocabulary) you see the traffic.
 

jetman

New Member
Tnx for the share glad
you still posting,stats show a high percentege of middairs occur in the trainning enviroment.
Any idea if a TPAS box[ $500 monroe or suretec] may help?
Take care jetman
 

DE727UPS

Well-Known Member
ATC\'s primary function

Is to seperate IFR aircraft. When time permits, pointing out VFR traffic becomes a priority. You were IFR and if the other guy was IFR, then ATC screwed up big time. You stated the weather was VFR....if so, seperation between you and the other aircraft is your responsibility and not ATC's.

They probably pulled the controller off the position because you made a stink on the frequency. He went over and gave his side of the story to the supe and they are awaiting your phone call....let us know how it turns out....

I don't mean to be judgemental but I used to work at an FAA TRACON and I've been in your situation a few times....I understand how the system works. Legally, you don't have a leg to stand on. Morally...it all depends on the controller and his workload.

My advice is to work twice as hard at keeping an eye out...to include a backseater. Also, one of those new TPAS boxes might be a good investment....
 

pkloop

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
I had a bad experience with SoCal around Van Nuys too. We were inbound on the ILS 16R into VNY(I was under the hood), and just as the app controler is switching us to the tower, my CFII starts yelling about a twin cessna overtaking us from above. He couldn't have been more than 200 feet directly above us. We informed SoCal of this and he says calmly "He has you insight, switch to the tower." What a JACKASS!! He lets a guy overtake us on the ILS??? without telling us??? what is that???


[/ QUOTE ] I don't believe thats legal for a controller to do. Should have made up an incident on that one
 

little_cricket

Well-Known Member
It doesn't matter if you are an airliner or Cessna, they don't point out half of the traffic and the ones they do point out are 10 miles away or 1000 feet above, not the one setting off your TCAS. Controllers always fall back on the position of see and avoid in VMC whether your IFR or VFR, which is correct, but 200+ kias things happen fast sure would be nice for some help..... The golden beebee is out there, so be careful.
 

N519AT

Ahh! This is how I change this!
Ive read a book once (Unfriendly Skys, details are sketchy on this one, I haven't read the book for a while), talking about ATC in one chapter. They said that if one aircraft gets within a certain range of another aircraft then a alert goes out from the Certain ATCs radar screen to the supervisor, in which sometimes they get a break, sometimes they get turned in. It has something to do with like if you get 3 alerts then youre reported for example
 

Joe

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
As we all learned on a recent episode of Coupling, it's vital to have a "porn buddy" to, um, "sanitize" your pad in the event of your untimely demise. It's a win-win situation as you're saved from the embarrassment of your parents discovering your taste for, say, lesbian midget action, and your buddy gets a free boost to his collection!

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought I saw something like that on The Man Show a while back...
 

viper548

Well-Known Member
I was on a flight about 6 mo. ago, VFR and ATC told me to climb immediatly 500 feet. I pulled into about a 2g climb and was there in a couple of seconds. I saw a plane pass beneth me from my 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock. That would have been really close. He was in the sun, I would have never seen him. That's what ATC should do. They weren't obligated to tell me anything, I was VFR, the other guy was obviously VFR, but the controlled possibly prevented a mid-air, just by looking out for EVERYONE! I gave that controller due thanks and told him that it would have been really close.
 

hammer

New Member
Happens to the best of us ... I remember working the Orlando practice area over Lake Apopka and one of the European charters (767 or A330) going into Sanford came barreling through at the same altitude. It certainly woke us all up (as if learning stalls with a student pilot wasn't enough)!
 

PurduePilot

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
They said that if one aircraft gets within a certain range of another aircraft then a alert goes out from the Certain ATCs radar screen to the supervisor, in which sometimes they get a break, sometimes they get turned in.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's called the snitch and it's behind every controller's screen. They all go to the supervisor's desk. Once will get you put on break, twice will send you on a "vacation" and I believe three times will get you sent for recertification.

Maybe someone else here can back me up. It's been a while since I took my ATC course.
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
Re: ATC\'s primary function

Thanks guys.


I agree 100% that traffic seperation is my responsibility in VFR conditions, I'm not making any excuses for that whatsoever- it was technically my fault- plain and simple. But given the fact that the controller wasn't too busy to point out traffic that wasn't even a factor, I was just peeved that he didn't point out the one that was. I literally only looked down for a few seconds (enough time to shuffle two approach plates) before I looked back up and saw the other aircraft. Oh well, thanks again for the advice and support. Lesson learned, and lived to fly another day.


P.S.- I now have recruited a "porn buddy".
 
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