Clearance to taxi across a runway.

Alchemy

Partner, Ally, Friend
Quick question:

Is it always mandatory to get a specific clearance, then read back that clearance, when crossing a runway during taxi? If you get instructions to taxi to point X on the airport, and the only way to get there involves crossing a runway, are you allowed to go to point X without stopping short of the runway you must cross and getting a clearance before you cross it?

I really should know this by now but don't. I don't have much experience with airports that have multiple intersecting runways, just curious.....
 

highspeed

Well-Known Member
I believe if you're cleared to taxi to runway 6 you can use any taxiway and cross any runways EXCEPT for runway 6. Sometimes though there may not be a way to get to the end of the runway with crossing it, as was the case with 7L at DAB before some construction. I overheard several incursions happening that way.

Best bet, ask before crossing any and all runways.
 

Ophir

Well-Known Member
From AIM 4-3-18

"5. When ATC clears an aircraft to "taxi to" an assigned takeoff runway, the absence of holding instructions authorizes the aircraft to "cross" all runways which the taxi route intersects except the assigned takeoff runway. It does not include authorization to "taxi onto" or "cross" the assigned takeoff runway at any point. In order to preclude misunderstandings in radio communications, ATC will not use the word "cleared" in conjunction with authorization for aircraft to taxi.





6. In the absence of holding instructions, a clearance to "taxi to" any point other than an assigned takeoff runway is a clearance to cross all runways that intersect the taxi route to that point.

7. Air traffic control will first specify the runway, issue taxi instructions, and then state any required hold short instructions, when authorizing an aircraft to taxi for departure. This does not authorize the aircraft to "enter" or "cross" the assigned departure runway at any point. "
 

Alchemy

Partner, Ally, Friend
Thanks for looking that up Ophir, didn't have my FAR/AIM handy at work and this question was bugging me....
 

mtsu_av8er

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Here's a question for you.
After landing when do you contact ground control?

[/ QUOTE ]

When told to.....
 

highspeed

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
When told to.....

[/ QUOTE ]

I always contacted ground when the plane was clear the hold lines and after I had cleaned up the airplane. Unless upon landing tower said something like "N12345 taxi to ramp with me"
 

Alchemy

Partner, Ally, Friend
My CFI once told me never to do it until I was clear of the runway. However, there have been times when I waited till I was clear of the runway, and when I switched to ground the controller was already asking: "cessna 123AB, are you on freq yet?", which leads me to believe they want you to switch frequencies as soon as they tell you to.
 

Baronman

Well-Known Member
I contact Ground as soon as they tell me to.....

Lot's of times I clear the runway while Tower is busy but I don't switch to ground unless Tower tells me. If I think he forgot about me I'll query them.

I don't switch to ground on my own because as far as they are concerned, I'm still with Tower until they say so. If they have to give me some instruction, tower is still the one with the responsibility.
 

SteveC

Really?
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
I contact Ground as soon as they tell me to.....

Lot's of times I clear the runway while Tower is busy but I don't switch to ground unless Tower tells me. If I think he forgot about me I'll query them.

I don't switch to ground on my own because as far as they are concerned, I'm still with Tower until they say so. If they have to give me some instruction, tower is still the one with the responsibility.

[/ QUOTE ]
The general rule is to switch to ground as you cross the hold-short line exiting the runway. Tower has no control of (or responsibility for) planes beyond that point (unless they're working both positions) and technically you shouldn't make a move beyond there until you talk to ground control.
Granted, most fields aren't too strict on that point, and they're usually pretty good about telling you to switch when they want you to.
Remember, it's similar to when you are taking off from the field - ground doesn't tell you when to switch to tower, you just do it automatically when you're ready to take the active runway.
 

Ralgha

Well-Known Member
According to the AIM, you are not supposed to change to ground until the tower tells you to.
 

Eagle

New Member
So you get this.

N12345R right turn next intersection contact ground point 9.

The next intersection is more than 1/2 way from you to the end of the runway.

When do you contact Ground.
 

SteveC

Really?
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
According to the AIM, you are not supposed to change to ground until the tower tells you to.

[/ QUOTE ]
I stand corrected:
[ QUOTE ]
AIM 4-3-20. Exiting the runway after landing.
The following procedures should be followed after landing and reaching taxi speed.
a. Exit the runway without delay...
b. Taxi clear of the runway unless otherwise directed...
c. Stop the aircraft after clearing the runway...
d. Immediately change to ground control frequency when advised by the tower and obtain a taxi clearance.

[/ QUOTE ]

(You'd think I'd know better than to speak up without verifying first.
)
 

flyguy

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
So you get this.

N12345R right turn next intersection contact ground point 9.

The next intersection is more than 1/2 way from you to the end of the runway.

When do you contact Ground.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just a guess but here's my thoughts on this situation. When the tower told you to tune to ground, its nothing more than clearance for the frequency change. They aren't saying contact ground immediately. In fact every time I've heard this it has been somehting more along the lines of "turn right next intersection then ground on point 9." I immagine ground won't like it if you say "ground, 1234R, on runway 27, rolling past E, make that D, make that C, and will probably be turning off on B, or possibly A, request taxi to parking." They need to know where you are and I think they would much prefer you to wait until you are stopped and clear of the runway.
 

Ophir

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't switch to ground until clear of the active. That way, if something really stange/unsafe were about to happen/hit you, tower would still be in communication with you. Ground guys are looking for ground traffic that is not on the runways. You are still on the runway, stay with the tower.
 

C650CPT

Well-Known Member
Immediately change to ground control frequency when advised by the tower and obtain a taxi clearance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh ... this is one of my favorite your damned if you do damned if you don't. The correct answer is as stated but you and I know that ... its the controllers who forget it. I have played the dumb pilot part and cleared the runway and waited for the tower to give me that instruction ... and waited ... and waited. I have also been chewed out for contacting ground with out the instruction of the tower. Pittsburg ( PIT ) is great for this, the tower does sometime maintain control of aircraft on taxi ways because his plan may include taxi that aircraft back across his active runway prior to releasing it to the ground controller. Generally common sense will prevail but every once in a while you will get the notorious controller who sole purpose is to tell you what to do and they don't like it when you figure it out ahead of them and they just got to let you know about it. Be safe out there.
 

flyguy

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I have played the dumb pilot part and cleared the runway and waited for the tower to give me that instruction ... and waited ... and waited.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why didn't you just ask for the frequency change to talk to ground.
 

C650CPT

Well-Known Member
Because I wanted to see if / when the controller was going to do what he was suppose to do. I was being stubborn.
 

Eagle

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
Because I wanted to see if / when the controller was going to do what he was suppose to do. I was being stubborn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey when I do this I am told you are just being a "dick",

Ummm Yep.
 
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