Check airman

bimmerphile

SuperCritical™ Member
#1
For the line check airmen/women of the board:
What's the most useful advice you could pass on to someone who may be new to instructing/who was never a CFI? A friend thinks he's capable of such tasks and has been reading up quite a bit on FOI etc but still has some doubts, outside of the mentoring of normal line FOs he has no experience teaching in an airplane.
 
#3
There were a few non CFI, yet very successful instructors, in my LCA class. I cannot speak for that particular background as I had about 1000 dual given before the airlines. That experience helped to determine how far to let things go before intervening and how to communicate ideas/concepts effectively. However, for advice... never ever rush, quadruple check everything, and be a consummate professional in and out of the plane. Basically, be an excellent captain.
 

bimmerphile

SuperCritical™ Member
#4
My friend believes it may be easier in some aspects to teach as a LCA compared to being a line captain, since some direction is expected during training vs. giving line pilots with a good amount time in the aircraft enough rope before intervening/commenting during normal ops. He flies the book consistently and tries to pass on information to FOs as much as he can without acting like an imposing arse hole.
 

SurferLucas

Southern Gentleman
#5
Being a LCA can be a handful, especially when training new hire OE. Had I not been a CFI, it would have been exponentially tougher.

Reading the FOI is a must. Knowing how far to let things go, and knowing when to let them make mistakes/learn from them. Also, you ARE the example that others will follow/replicate...so being of the highest professionalism is tantamount.

After 700hrs of doing OE, it’s been a great and rewarding challenge.
 

A150K

Well-Known Member
#7
I'm not a LCA, but I'd say that my current airline's biggest weakness is a training department full of people who don't know how to help people learn. I think a CFI should be required.
Hard to paint it with that broad of a brush...I personally had an excellent instructor at a 135 who was never a CFI and a terrible one at a different 135 who had a couple thousand dual given. Same would apply towards 121 LCA's (though most ive flown with during IOE and on regular trips have been fine). Not gonna argue that having a CFI probably helps though.
 
#8
Hard to paint it with that broad of a brush...I personally had an excellent instructor at a 135 who was never a CFI and a terrible one at a different 135 who had a couple thousand dual given. Same would apply towards 121 LCA's (though most ive flown with during IOE and on regular trips have been fine). Not gonna argue that having a CFI probably helps though.
Basically my point. I’m sure there is a little of both on each side, but I would imagine that for those who are good at teaching a CFI certificate wouldn’t be the most insurmountable of hurdles in the way to becoming a LCA.

My company basically just has a lot of people whose qualifications are “have been airplaning for a long time.” The people skills required to convey knowledge effectively don’t always develop that way.
 
#9
For the line check airmen/women of the board:
What's the most useful advice you could pass on to someone who may be new to instructing/who was never a CFI? A friend thinks he's capable of such tasks and has been reading up quite a bit on FOI etc but still has some doubts, outside of the mentoring of normal line FOs he has no experience teaching in an airplane.
Hopefully on IOE you aren’t “teaching”. You’ll be sharing experience and letting them get a feel for the plane, however they “should” know what they’re supposed to be doing.

You’ll have to observe a few legs of IOE, and then “Give IOE to the check airman”. After that you get to wreck your own souls.

Start with a solid brief. Seriously walk them through walking on the plane to walking off. Tell them exactly what you expect them to do do. Chair fly them through a departure on the line vs. sim departure. Brief the hot topics, and gotchas. Expect them to be way behind the plane on leg one. When you safely can, tell them exactly what your doing as you do it- and why.

Day 1-2 you’ll be coaching a lot.
After that they need to start doing it themselves. They should have a fee for timing, and shouldn’t need to be prompted for normal duties.

You’re not going to sign them off as full fledged 100% competent pilots. They’ll still be green, and still make mistakes. Once they start to realize their mistakes, generally they’re gtg.



Once you really get comfortable, I found it was actually easier if I gave them the first leg. Reason being, they come out of the sim VERY proficient at flying profiles. SID to a STAR to an ILS to a landing is what they currently rock at. Radios, timing, non sim procedure is where they are weak. Letting them fly the plane without having to worry about the rest, while getting to see the rest frequently made it easier. Just be ready to take the airplane back, and if your do- remember to remind them that it’s ok- that’s your job.


Good luck!
 

z987k

Well-Known Member
#10
Hopefully on IOE you aren’t “teaching”. You’ll be sharing experience and letting them get a feel for the plane, however they “should” know what they’re supposed to be doing.
Ya, so at our company, they pass you on OE and you still probably shouldn't be out of the sim yet.
Then you have the LCAs Emu is talking about, combined with no standardization between them at all.
 
#11
Ya, so at our company, they pass you on OE and you still probably shouldn't be out of the sim yet.
Then you have the LCAs Emu is talking about, combined with no standardization between them at all.
Initial sim curriculum rarely ever teaches any operating experience beyond the loft. Mostly a procedural trainer at that point. People don’t have the experience in the plane usually to correlate issues with causes and see beyond the checklist.

The expectation coming out of the sim is that you can fly book profiles, adequately and accurately address abnormal systems and emergencies, and that you have the SA and presence to realize when you’re making a mistake and at least seek help.

The loft scenario is a joke, however the line experience really comes during IOE. Completion of IOE is generally a line check to see if you’re on course and progressing normally. It’s why we have high mins and pairing restrictions.

You’ll notice in nearly every Captain or PIC job description under duties it usually includes “mentoring” those user their supervision. Nobody in the training cycle expects a newly minted FO, fresh out of IOE to be much more than a brand new guy with a few landings. They won’t be fully comfortable as an FO for a fair amount of time after that.


Now, if it’s an issues with standardization amongst LCA’s, it becomes a question of where is standardization lacking. If it’s SOP’s, then you have a problem. If it’s regarding how/when they sign off students, then, that’s a bit different.
 
#14
Lots of discussion regarding new FO IOE but at my prior shop most OE ASAPs came from captain upgrade OE. Just a fun fact.
Yep. Complacency because you think the pilots done time and knows the game + you have to cut the strings and let them do them (and make their own mistakes). Frequently a delicate balance when combined with check airman that don’t have a ton of recent time in the right seat.
 

ozziecat35

4 out of 5 great lakes prefer Michigan.
#16
I’m on trip 2 of FO IOE right now and my LCA even mentioned when I started trying to configure 8 miles out from the faf, “Yeah, our job is to wean you off the sim profiles and into the real world.”

First approach into ORD with 180 to the marker I was defecating bricks...it’s slowing down now though.
 

jtrain609

I'm a carnal, organic anagram.
#17
I’m on trip 2 of FO IOE right now and my LCA even mentioned when I started trying to configure 8 miles out from the faf, “Yeah, our job is to wean you off the sim profiles and into the real world.”

First approach into ORD with 180 to the marker I was defecating bricks...it’s slowing down now though.
YOU ARE WEAK. AT MY REGIONAL WE DID 250 TO THE MARKER WHILE IN A NEGATIVE FOUR G DIVE!
 
#20
First approach into ORD with 180 to the marker I was defecating bricks...it’s slowing down now though.
The jungle jet could do 250 to the FAF and be stable by 1000'.
Le Bus,? no. Its sweet spot is 210 and decelerating and the FAF. Anything more and "go-around flaps," are uttered in your near future.

You're on the CRJ, N'est pas? You'll learn the energy management of it, which the sim can't recreate.
Listen to the CKA and learn. Don't stop learning from the captains you'll be flying with soon enough. They're not CKA's, maybe for good reason, but they may also have lots of wisdom to pass on as well.
 
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