Challenger overdue in Mexico

knot4u

Repeat Offender
If I only had a nickle for every clack I've heard.

Not that I'm advocating such nonsense, but some old Lear operators wired a "go-fast" switch used to turn off the O/S alert.
Or they just pulled the circuit breaker. I wasn't around back then but I've heard a few stories of old Lear pilots doing that and got into Mach Tuck, some were able to recover and I guess some weren't.
 

Cherokee_Cruiser

Well-Known Member
Why is it that corporate operators tend to not take it as seriously as the 121 airlines? I mean stuff like the LR60 at CAE, once at V1 the hands should have come off the thrust levers and just go, take off. Or at KBED the GIV taking off literally not reading any checklist, no flight control check, and gust lock still engaged. And now some are pulling CBs to avoid hearing the overspeed clacker and get into Mach Tuck? Sheesh
 

JeppUpdater

Well-Known Member
Why is it that corporate operators tend to not take it as seriously as the 121 airlines? I mean stuff like the LR60 at CAE, once at V1 the hands should have come off the thrust levers and just go, take off. Or at KBED the GIV taking off literally not reading any checklist, no flight control check, and gust lock still engaged. And now some are pulling CBs to avoid hearing the overspeed clacker and get into Mach Tuck? Sheesh
Corporate operators are definitely not the same as a fly by night Lear operator. Even in 135, most of that crap (South Florida and VNY excluded) is thankfully gone. I’ve seen 121 regional drivers pull overspeed circuit breakers...bad behavior isn’t limited to one pilot group. Private flying just gives more opportunity for idiocy and, more insidiously, a normalization of deviancy.
 

Roger Roger

Paid to sleep, fly for fun
Corporate operators are definitely not the same as a fly by night Lear operator. Even in 135, most of that crap (South Florida and VNY excluded) is thankfully gone. I’ve seen 121 regional drivers pull overspeed circuit breakers...bad behavior isn’t limited to one pilot group. Private flying just gives more opportunity for idiocy and, more insidiously, a normalization of deviancy.
Hot take: circuit protection for certain warning and recording devices should be via a fuse accessible only by maintenance.
 

GypsyPilot

Well-Known Member
That advice is frankly dangerous.
If you’re in a really tight coffin corner and you rip out full spoilers, then yes of course. But otherwise, why would you say that? By that logic, it would also be dangerous to use the spoilers to increase your descent rate when you’re up high.
 

v1valarob

Well-Known Member
Why is it that corporate operators tend to not take it as seriously as the 121 airlines? I mean stuff like the LR60 at CAE, once at V1 the hands should have come off the thrust levers and just go, take off. Or at KBED the GIV taking off literally not reading any checklist, no flight control check, and gust lock still engaged. And now some are pulling CBs to avoid hearing the overspeed clacker and get into Mach Tuck? Sheesh
When you fly a single plane with no oversight from anyone and literally the only way of getting into trouble is if you break something then you start moving the line slowly until eventually it’s so far out there.

The Lear I flew was managed 135, but we didn’t have FOQA. We were the only 2 pilots to fly it, and we didn’t have a jumpseat and there was no way someone was paying for an empty leg so a company pilot could come observe us.

If 121 didn’t have FOQA, a jumpseat, or the randomness of flying with a person who you don’t know anything about personally you’d see a lot more moving the line of safety.
 

CFI A&P

Exploring the world one toilet at a time.
Why is it that corporate operators tend to not take it as seriously as the 121 airlines? I mean stuff like the LR60 at CAE, once at V1 the hands should have come off the thrust levers and just go, take off. Or at KBED the GIV taking off literally not reading any checklist, no flight control check, and gust lock still engaged. And now some are pulling CBs to avoid hearing the overspeed clacker and get into Mach Tuck? Sheesh
There are some non 121 operators that have a very good safety culture and SOPs, some even have FOQA programs. One of my friends used to work for a 91 department that required a review of the ARFF capabilities before sending the boss there. If the trip was to an smaller class D or E field that didn't pass their requirements, then they'd go to the larger C or B nearby and have a limo waiting.

Then there are some 91 operations that operate under "You better get me into Aspen or you're fired!" - True story.
 
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CoffeeIcePapers

Well-Hung Member
Fortunately for me, I never felt any pressure from passengers flying 135 and 91. Most of the people I flew were either scared to death or flew enough to understand that taking unnecessary risks didn't make a ton of sense. I did have lots of issues with brokers, though.
 

Cherokee_Cruiser

Well-Known Member
When you fly a single plane with no oversight from anyone and literally the only way of getting into trouble is if you break something then you start moving the line slowly until eventually it’s so far out there.

The Lear I flew was managed 135, but we didn’t have FOQA. We were the only 2 pilots to fly it, and we didn’t have a jumpseat and there was no way someone was paying for an empty leg so a company pilot could come observe us.

If 121 didn’t have FOQA, a jumpseat, or the randomness of flying with a person who you don’t know anything about personally you’d see a lot more moving the line of safety.
I personally wouldn’t do it. I study aviation accidents (browsing reports and dockets) and have learned so much that I wouldn’t dare try to intentionally deviate from something set up to protect us/our operation.
 

Autothrust Blue

"Duuuuuude."
And don’t get me started on that red Lear crash at TEB last year. Holy crap o_O
A pilot crewmember who is not allowed to, and cannot, fly the airplane, is not a pilot crewmember. He is a useless appendage and probably more of a hindrance or hazard than an assistance (and moreover, not worth his own weight). To hell with (especially) the insurance companies and the Fuzz for allowing and endorsing such a patently ridiculous set of circumstances.

If you’re in a really tight coffin corner and you rip out full spoilers, then yes of course. But otherwise, why would you say that? By that logic, it would also be dangerous to use the spoilers to increase your descent rate when you’re up high.
Thing of it is, we're only talking about a few degrees of spoiler deflection at most; any larger and you run into nifty aerodynamic issues like Vls (Airbus) or Vsw-or-whatever-it-is-on-the-175 running into Mmo. Largely the same issue on a non-envelope-protected aircraft, sans the envelope protection, as well.

I'll take a few knots of overspeed (and the possible activation of high speed protection, and having to write it up - big whoop) any day than putting the boards out, even a few degrees, in wave.
 

Cherokee_Cruiser

Well-Known Member
But that FO had been hired at Short Hills Aviation. So how the heck can that be the case if he can’t even fly? And the CA cussing literally every other word. How does someone like that make it in aviation? If someone like that worked for me, they wouldn’t be for long. And no 121 airline would put up with that either.
 
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