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Black marks and how to handle them.

Discussion in 'Resume Assistance' started by Max Power, Jul 13, 2015.

  1. Max Power

    Max Power Well-Known Member

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    In this day of HR driven hiring and computer algorithms for resumes, how do you deal with your black marks to actually be able to explain them to a person?


    - I've got one oral checkride fail that was post CFI but pre-121 or 135
    - I missed passing the ATP written by one point my first time ( I foolishly didn't use one of the programs out there to help pass the test)

    - I was also asked to resign my position at a 121 regional after a year because of recurrent training. But pulling my PRIA records two years ago show nothing that says "training failure".

    - I was terminated by my previous 135 employer for allegedly violating a company rule. Yet it was more of retaliation for perceived wrong-doings by the insecure and tyrannical president of the company. In essence I was fired because he didn't like me, even though I never did anything "wrong" to him, but he thought I did.

    - I also had a runway incursion that was investigated but no action was ever taken (and I was not PIC.)


    PM for details if you want them. None are too terrible by themselves, but combined all must look awful to the computers and HR people that look at my resume. I won't lie about my experiences, but I will tell as much truth as I need to. And was able to explain them to my current regional when hired. But my current regional always needs pilots and I fear these marks will be more detrimental to me going forward. And since I'm concerned about my current FFD regional going forward, I've started filling out applications again.

    Thank in advance.
     
  2. z987k

    z987k TeamANC

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    That's a lot of explaining you're going to have to do.
     
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  3. GypsyPilot

    GypsyPilot Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. My advice would be to upgrade (and make sure you study your ass off to not fail!), and get some drama free years between your last incident.
     
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  4. Max Power

    Max Power Well-Known Member

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    The upgrade thing is my plan, but it was also my plan at the 135 before I was terminated abruptly. The worrisome thing is that my FFD regional is having a heck of a time recruiting. Now, I know they all are, but we're small and not as attractive as the larger groups (no SJS here). As you can see, I usually get ahead and then knocked back. We haven't had enough FOs come in and have had many captains leave. Upgrades have stopped. You get the idea.

    I'm trying to stay drama free, but I'm trying to figure out some of these things that happened and how to explain them on the applications. It's painful revisiting these things every time I fill an application and I wonder if I should bother. I feel I've no chance at a legacy, but I'd like to make it somewhere like WN or B6, even Spirit.
     
  5. GypsyPilot

    GypsyPilot Well-Known Member

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    I hear you... I'm still having to face the fact that having a GED affects my hiring score, despite the tremendous accomplishments I've made in the 20 years since high school. It sucks, it isn't right, and is extremely frustrating. People like us will eventually get our shot, I have no doubt.
     
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  6. z987k

    z987k TeamANC

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    What you're going to need is someone with a lot of clout and a great record to go to bat for you and say, I know he has a past, but that is all behind him and he's impeccable now. And of course, you have to actually live up to that. Because honestly, if I saw that resume, I wouldn't look at it twice, that's for sure. I mean, I can't think of a single reason to fail a checkride as a professional. Even overlooking that it's the multiple bad things. No one is that unlucky or at the very least no one allows themselves to be in that many bad situations. I don't know you or the whole story, but I can't help but think you had some roll in parts of it. Obviously a massive one in the recurrent, oral fail and ATP written fail, as that's 100% on you.
     
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  7. jynxyjoe

    jynxyjoe The Kickin' Chicken!

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    We had a guy with multiple failures and trying their best to break an avro in half (only got the flight attendants ) and ducked work at every opportunity using some of the most convoluted and bastard employee practices I've ever seen who passed the SSP successfully admid a flurry of 60-80% rejection rates (checkairmen and senior guys who were hired immediately to another legacy or major). So relax, the guys still at Delta and is starting up his old tricks now that he's off probation. Just do lots of interview prep and remember, the rest of the working world makes mistakes and what counts is the recovery, pilots are just stupid believing they need to be infallable.
     
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  8. Max Power

    Max Power Well-Known Member

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    Oh, there's no doubt that I'm to blame for some of it. The ATP written was a bad choice. I was out with a medical issue after just starting at the 135. I decided to show some goodwill to the pushy chief pilot and tyrannical president of the company( who thought my medical condition was a scam)by completing the written. I was passing practice tests in the 90's, so I decided to go for it. I had a bunch of questions that I'd never seen before. And not using one of the test prep courses besides the Gleim book and software was also a poor choice.

    When I explain fully to anyone what my former 135 was like, especially those who've never worked on demand 135, they are amazed by the bs that occurred. When I told the full story about my termination by the 135 during my interview, it was agreed that it wasn't really justified and kind of strange.

    I fully take ownership of my mistakes. Once I get to tell what happened, it's usually OK. But with all those tick boxes, I never get to that point. And I get it, I get why. We all have a story as to why we are where we are. But we can't tell that to a computer.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2015
  9. Gonzo

    Gonzo Well-Known Member

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    @Max Power the good news is nobody is going to care about the first two, and the last one will be hit or miss, just be ready to talk about what happened and what you learned from it. Fired from a 135 sucks, may I ask who was the company? (You can PM me if you don't want to post it) a company like Keylime is well known for BS. The 121 bust will be your biggest hill to overcome, because most 121 airlines give you a few shots at pass the ride before they ask you to resign, and even though the PRIA you pulled doesn't show anything, when that airline turns over all you training records it will show you resigned during a training event.

    I think it is great that you live in the perfect world, but for the rest of us it isn't so easy. I can't think of a single person I know that hasn't had a off day in the sim or oral, was the weak oral/sim a passing 70 of a failing 69. You had some check airman at Eagle with 30% bust rates.
     
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  10. Roger Roger

    Roger Roger Navajo Whisperer

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    Anyone who's ever worked 135 will know not to take the 135 deal at face value until they learn the facts because they will know of the bat poop crazy stuff that goes on in 135 and how widely those companies can vary. Unfortunately if you're wanting to go 121 your problem is just what you said-getting past the automated screening. What should be really concerning though is being asked to resign from a 121 carrier in recurrent. I know Gonzo said that at some carriers it wasn't uncommon to have a failure now and then but to be asked to resign even if it doesn't show on a pria should really make one stop and think.
     
  11. drunkenbeagle

    drunkenbeagle Gang Member

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    Unsatisfactory performance on a checkride is at least equally due to a failure on the part of the instructor. There are plenty of reasons one may not pass, but at the end of the day, for checkrides to mean anything, there must be a good risk of not passing. If everyone always passed, what would be the point of performing them?

    Ultimately, they exist in order to identify weaknesses in training. Which should be corrected with additional training.
     
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  12. Hacker15e

    Hacker15e The Intersection of Opportunity and Preparation

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    "At least equally"?

    Uh, no.

    Instructors obviously bear great responsibility when it comes to preparing someone to go check ride, but that student's performance is entirely their own the day of the check.

    If they performed something that they were taught, (but which was taught incorrectly), then there is obviously a lot of instructor responsibility there.

    Execution errors, however, are owned by that individual.
     
  13. drunkenbeagle

    drunkenbeagle Gang Member

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    Making sure that they are prepared before signing them off is a huge part of it.
     
  14. Derg

    Derg Naval Intelligence, MCRN Staff Member

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    Just charge forward. If asked about it, no matter what happened, take ownership, even if it wasn't your fault.

    Ask yourself, "What did I learn?" because if you're not able to communicate that during an interview, no one really wants a "Bad things happen to me because of someone else" candidate.
     
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  15. z987k

    z987k TeamANC

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    This was what I was trying to communicate.
     
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  16. z987k

    z987k TeamANC

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    You know what is expected of you 12 months prior. They're no big secret and to be honest you should probably be able to perform one at random at any given time. If not, then are you really to standard to safely fly? But I'm actually flying my airplane a lot of the time. I get how if you just stare at the AP for 6 months you might have trouble with stalls and other visual type maneuvers.
    But that's why you get sims before the ride, to refresh the deficiencies and correct before you take the ride. Initials and types I can kind of see, if you don't know what you're doing and somehow can't tell you're not ready, but on a recurrent you get mulligans.
     
  17. Gonzo

    Gonzo Well-Known Member

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    You really are showing you are clueless on how most 121 school houses work. Rides are every 6 months and most don't give a warm up sim, it is one sim, the last time most guys did a V1 before they do it in a ride is the last ride, that is anywhere from 6 months to a year before.
     
  18. z987k

    z987k TeamANC

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    12 months for sic. 6 for pic. 135 and 121 are the same except for aqp. I've done initial and recurrent under both certificates.
    But think to yourself. If you are unable to perform a v1 cut today, are you really safe/proficient enough to fly? It's not like they only happen on checkrides.

    I'm no sky god, but I can meet some bare minimum qualifications after years of doing this.
     
  19. Max Power

    Max Power Well-Known Member

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    Experience is what we get when we least expect it or something like that. It's just hard to keep pressing on when you're pretty sure your past keeps you from moving on. But I keep going, it's the only thing I know how to do and this is the only job I've ever wanted. And I certainly learned a lot from my mistakes, it's just trying to figure out how to get others (or computers) to see that which lead me to post this.

    Thanks to all that have replied.
     
  20. Cptnchia

    Cptnchia Well-Known Member

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    Not sure I'd want to work at a 121 shop that works that way. Luckily, SJI is every 9 months, (AQP,) and there is one warm up sim, followed by the actual CQ ride the next day. There are First Look spots, where the instructor will throw certain things in at you to see if you can do the procedures on the first day, but if you fail those, it's train to proficiency.

    Overall, even when I was at ASA, it was almost impossible to completely fail a CQ ride. You would have to consistently fail to meet Standards, even after multiple attempts.

    Plus, the training syllabus is posted online. Like z987k said, if you don't know what's expected of you, you got no one to blame but yourself.
     

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