BFR question

cime_sp

Well-Known Member
Another currency/BFR question. Does getting your CFI or CFII re-start the 2 year clock with regards to needing a BFR or is it only additions to your "pilot certificate" that count? I've heard it answered both ways....

-Confused
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
Any time you add a new pilot certificate or rating it re-starts the 24-month cycle.

So yes ... it counts towards/as the BFR.
 

cime_sp

Well-Known Member
My question I guess is whether the FAA distinguishes between pilot certificates and instructor certificates when talking about BFR's
 

fly22

Well-Known Member
Hey 602, where is that written? Not that I'm doubting you but for my own reference. Having earned my Ints a year ago I'm ok I would presume. I ask because, like you, being an aircraft owner I would hate for anything to happen and then the FAA turns around and says you're not current. ##$%^ there goes my insurance money and policy.
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
[ QUOTE ]

61.56 Flight Review:
...
(d) A Person who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of this section, passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege need not accomplish the flight review required by this section.

[/ QUOTE ]

Paragaph C outlines the 24-month cycle.
 

cime_sp

Well-Known Member
In my mind....and tell me if I'm interpreting this wrong....a CFI or -II is an instructor certificate and not a pilot certificate. They do mention an additional rating, which the -II would be, but their wording makes it sound as if it must be an additional rating to a pilot certificate and not an instructor certificate.....

....Or am I looking just into this way too deeply
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
The CFI/II/MEI is an additional "rating" to the base pilot certificate. Because each requires that the applicant hold a commercial pilot certificate. Without the pilot certificate you can't get an instructor certificate/rating.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Another currency/BFR question. Does getting your CFI or CFII re-start the 2 year clock with regards to needing a BFR or is it only additions to your "pilot certificate" that count? I've heard it answered both ways....

[/ QUOTE ]The answer is, No, getting your CFI or CFII does not =automatically= restart the 2-year clock for the FR. You can go into a lot of detail on why, but it comes down to the FAA treating =pilot= certificates and =instructor= certificates differently (in fact they are two different certificates). Although it's not very likely, it is possible to obtain an instructor certificate or rating without demonstrating FR-level knowledge or proficiency.

If you are taking a CFI test, the best bet is to ask the examiner to sign a flight review also. Chances are that, unless you come across one who doesn't know the rule (in which case he should be sent for recurrent training), he will be happy to oblige.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
In my mind....and tell me if I'm interpreting this wrong....a CFI or -II is an instructor certificate and not a pilot certificate. They do mention an additional rating, which the -II would be, but their wording makes it sound as if it must be an additional rating to a pilot certificate and not an instructor certificate.....

....Or am I looking just into this way too deeply

[/ QUOTE ]Not at all. You are exactly right.
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
[ QUOTE ]
The answer is, No, getting your CFI or CFII does not =automatically= restart the 2-year clock for the FR. You can go into a lot of detail on why, but it comes down to the FAA treating =pilot= certificates and =instructor= certificates differently (in fact they are two different certificates). Although it's not very likely, it is possible to obtain an instructor certificate or rating without demonstrating FR-level knowledge or proficiency.

[/ QUOTE ]

The CFI does not "demonstrate" FR proficiency? How can demonstrating that you know how to teach everything to commercial standards not meet the "proficency" level required by the BFR? And, yes they are different certificates but you can't hold a flight instructor certificate without, first, holding a commercial pilot certificate.

Of course if I'm wrong, and not saying I'm not, I'd like to see the FARs or FAA Legal Opinions on the matter.
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
The answer is, No, getting your CFI or CFII does not =automatically= restart the 2-year clock for the FR.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh oh...that means I'm due for a BFR a lot sooner than I thought.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Of course if I'm wrong, and not saying I'm not, I'd like to see the FARs or FAA Legal Opinions on the matter.

[/ QUOTE ]Sure.

==============================
1 Aviation Plaza
Room 561
Jamaica, NY 11434

RE: Interpretation of FAR 61.56(d)

Dear Mr. Dennstaedt:

This is in response to your letter dated August 25, 2001, wherein you ask whether an airman can satisfy the flight review requirement under 14 C.F.R. (Federal Aviation Regulation [FAR]) 61.56 by passing a practical test to become a certified flight instructor (CFI), as required by FAR 61.183.

Under FAR 61.56(c)(1), one may not act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft unless, within the preceding 24 calendar months, he has "accomplished a flight review given in an aircraft for which that pilot is rated by an authorized instructor." Under FAR 61.56(c)(2), the airman must receive a logbook endorsement from the authorized instructor certifying that he has satisfactorily completed the review. Under FAR 61.56(a), a flight review must include: (1) a review of the current general operating and flight rules of Part 91; and (2) a review of those maneuvers and procedures that, at the discretion of the person giving the review, are necessary for the pilot to demonstrate the safe exercise of the privileges of the pilot certificate.

Under FAR 61.56(d), however, the flight review requirement of FAR 61.56(c)(1) does not apply to one who has "passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate rating, or operating privilege."

The issue you raise is whether passing a practical test to become a CFI can fall within the exception to the flight review requirement that is provided by FAR 61.56(d). Under FAR 183(h), to be eligible for a flight instructor certificate or rating, the applicant must "pass the required practical test that is appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought." The FAA Practical Test Standards (PTS) for the airplane flight instructor examiner (sic) requires that the examiner ensure that the flight instructor applicant has the "ability to perform the procedures and maneuvers included in the standards to at least the commercial pilot skill level."

Thus, the instructor has broad discretion in conducting a flight review. A CFI practical test encompasses the demonstration of various basic maneuvers that an instructor is likely to cover in a flight review. Incorporating a flight review into the CFI practical test could be accomplished, therefore, with little, if any difficulty.

Accordingly, a CFI practical test will not per se fulfill the flight review requirement. A practical test for a CFI rating under FAR 61.183, taken within 24 months of a prior flight review, can readily meet the flight review requirement of FAR 61.56(d), however, if the examiner is satisfied that a flight review endorsement can be given. To ensure that the CFI applicant gets credit for successful completion of the flight review, however, he or she should ask the examiner to conduct the CFI oral and practical test so as to satisfy the flight review requirements as well, and to make a logbook endorsement for the flight review upon completion of the examination.

If you have additional inquiries, please contact Zachary M. Berman of this office at (718) 553-3258.

Sincerely,


Loretta E. Alkalay

(FAA Regional Counsel, Eastern Region)
==============================

and the FAQ, which is unfortunately not as clear, although that "if" and the beginning of the answer says it all.:

==============================
QUESTION: The particular question is whether a flight instructor who passes a flight instructor practical test (for initial issuance or a CFI rating addition or for a reinstatement) is or is not exempt from needing a § 61.56 Flight Review for the next two years, since the reg. specifically says PILOT proficiency check.” § 6l.56 d - allows this exemption for a person who has"... passed a PILOT proficiency check.." not needing to accomplish a flight review for the next 2 years.

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.56(d); If the examiner also evaluates the applicant's piloting skills then YES, “. . . a flight instructor practical test (for initial issuance or a CFI rating addition or for a reinstatement) . . .” would meet the requirements of a § 61.56 Flight Review. However, to make sure the applicant gets credit for successful completion of the Flight Review, the examiner should record that the § 61.56 Flight Review was satisfactorily completed in the applicant's logbook.
==============================
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Uh oh...that means I'm due for a BFR a lot sooner than I thought.


[/ QUOTE ]Not necessarily. Go back to your CFI examiner and ask whether he would be willing to endorse a flight review as of the date of your practical test. Some may be irrationally concerned about "back-dating" something, but most probably won't mind cleaning the paperwork to reflect something that actually happened.
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
Ah, its not worth it. I've had my CFI for over a year, and took the ride 1100 miles from where I live now.

I have to take a 141 instructor ride pretty soon, so I'll see if I can get it signed off then.
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
(Following rant not aimed at you Midlife) ...

What a crock of total &%$*#* bu##s#*t. Leave it to the FAA to make something so simple into something so convaluted and ridiculous. How can passing a test designed to give you the "privilige" of conducting a flight review not count towards staisfying the exception clause in 61.56(d)? Seriously, WTF.

Hell the only specified in 61.56 about what needs to be covered is that there must be one hour of ground and one hour of flight the rest of the review is left to the discretion of the CFI. So how can a review that is so vague not be staisfied by a friggin practical test!?

Grrr ... I normally take things in the FARs as is but this is just (and the only one to really have ever evoked this reaction in me) flat out beyon retarded.

Ah well... them thar be the rules I suppose. Gotta play by 'em. Although the good news is that's just an opinion (legal, yes, but still an opnion) and not a FAR so if someone were to challenge it it may change. Or, at least, be easier to change than a FAR.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
(Following rant not aimed at you Midlife) ...

[/ QUOTE ]I realize that you're not out to kill the messenger


If it's any help, remember that the FAA treats the CFI certificate differently from a pilot certificate in a lot of ways based on the CFI being a "teaching" privilege, not an "operating" privilege. For example, CFIs don't require a current medical unless they are acting as PIC. And if they are acting as PIC, all they need is a 3rd class. So, in a way, it's part of a fairly consistent policy pattern.

And really, how big a deal is it to turn to an examiner and say, "Would you mind signing off my flight review?"
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
[ QUOTE ]
And really, how big a deal is it to turn to an examiner and say, "Would you mind signing off my flight review?"

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not until you realize 26 months from your last "pilot certificate" that you are out of currency.

It makes no sense to me - at all - that the test for the certificate that grants you the privilige to administer the flight review does not satisfy the "pilot rating, review, etc" exception clause. Especially considering you must have a commercial pilot certificate in order to obtain a flight instructor certificate and that the BFR itself is such a vague an open-ended review.

I'm sure in some convaluted way it makes sense but I still think it's beyond retarded.

And yes you don't need a medical except how many CFis do you know that go around giving flight instruction for free? In order to get paid you need a current second class medical which then puts you in an "operating" priviliege. IMHO.
 

172_Captain

New Member
Successful completion of one or more phases of the FAA sponsored WINGS program will also fullfill the requirements of a BFR IF it is completed before the 24th calendar month.
See AC 61-91H paragraph 6.

Participation in the WINGS program can also renew your Flight Instructor Certificate, see Bulletin HBGA 00-18 (Flight Standards Handbook Bulletin for General Aviation)


This Wings Program is a very handy tool indeed.
 

SUSPilot

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And really, how big a deal is it to turn to an examiner and say, "Would you mind signing off my flight review?"

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not until you realize 26 months from your last "pilot certificate" that you are out of currency.

It makes no sense to me - at all - that the test for the certificate that grants you the privilige to administer the flight review does not satisfy the "pilot rating, review, etc" exception clause. Especially considering you must have a commercial pilot certificate in order to obtain a flight instructor certificate and that the BFR itself is such a vague an open-ended review.

I'm sure in some convaluted way it makes sense but I still think it's beyond retarded.

And yes you don't need a medical except how many CFis do you know that go around giving flight instruction for free? In order to get paid you need a current second class medical which then puts you in an "operating" priviliege. IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually the FAA has made rulings that when you pay an instructor you are paying for instruction not pilot services so they have ruled you can give compensated instruction without a second class medical and you only need the third class to act as PIC on an instruction flight. That being said most FBOs will require their CFIs to have at least a Second Class medical, and pretty much everyone I know who is looking for a job other than instructing has a First Class.


This is also why you can advertise instruction services, becuase you are not holding out for pilot services thus you are not going to fall into common carriage.
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
[ QUOTE ]
This is also why you can advertise instruction services, becuase you are not holding out for pilot services thus you are not going to fall into common carriage.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can also advertise pilot services. I.E. I'm a pilot looking for work. But only that. Advertising that you are available to fly an airplane for someone else is not common carraige. Common carriage is dictated by the owner/operator of the aircraft and how/what they do with it.

[ QUOTE ]
Actually the FAA has made rulings that when you pay an instructor you are paying for instruction not pilot services so they have ruled you can give compensated instruction without a second class medical and you only need the third class to act as PIC on an instruction flight. That being said most FBOs will require their CFIs to have at least a Second Class medical, and pretty much everyone I know who is looking for a job other than instructing has a First Class.


[/ QUOTE ]

(WARNING: rhetorical question) So why must you hold a commercial certificate in order to obtain the CFI in the first place? The FAA is the single most contradictory outfit I've ever seen.
 
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