Back by popular demand......

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
Quiz #2. Come and test your knowlege of common, and not-so-common, aviation information. Refresh prior knowlege, or even learn something new. Fun for all from the CFI to the student pilot.

1. How many discreet channels does the Microwave Landing System have?

2. How can one compute their time and distance from an NDB if they do not have DME onboard their aircraft?

3. What are L/MF airways and where are they commonly found? How are they depicted on charts and how are they identified (named)?

4. What two items of information are not depicted (pictured or written) on civil SIDs? (hint, civil SIDs do give minimum climb gradient)

5. You are holding in a published Holding In-Lieu Of (HILO) Procedure Turn (1 minute) and have just completed your outbound turn when you are given approach clearance by ATC. When can you reverse course and commence the approach?

6. You are flying on the 15 DME arc to intercept the final approach course inbound for a VOR or TACAN approach. At the intersection of the final course and the arc, an altitude restriction of at-or-above 5000' is depicted. By when must that altitude restriction be complied with?

7. If flying an ASR approach, after how many seconds maximum should the pilot query ATC if no transmissions are received? On a PAR approach? While being radar vectored to final?

8. Regards VASI systems: How would a pilot use an Optical Landing System?

9. If inbound to a controlled airport while on an IFR flightplan and cleared for a visual approach, and the WX is VFR, can an arriving aircraft fly an overhead pattern? What about if cleared for a visual approach to an uncontrolled field under the same WX conditions?

10. Referencing the PHX sectional chart (if you have one), notice that PHX and GBN VORTACS, among others, have a compass rose around them. IWA VORTAC does not. Why is this?

11. What is the difference between a transition altitude and a transition level?

MD
 

A300Capt

Freight Dawg
You've got WAY too much time on your hands, Mike!

What's a hog driver know about all this stuff anyway?!? With that big gun, nobody's gonna argue with you anyway!
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
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You've got WAY too much time on your hands, Mike!

What's a hog driver know about all this stuff anyway?!? With that big gun, nobody's gonna argue with you anyway!


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hehe. This is pulled from all the IFR review stuff we're tested on. Lots o stuff there.

MD
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
Alright, I'll give them a whirl. I don't have any instrument students at the moment, so I need to keep my IFR sharp....

1.) 200 (?). All I really know about MLS is that the azimuth is wider, and extends further and higher than an ILS.

2.) Well, even if they did have DME, they couldnt find time/distance to an NDB. Theres two ways..."Double the Angle on the Bow" is one. If you hold a given heading, the time it takes for the RB to double is the time to the station. Another way is to first find the time to station by:

Time= Min. for Bearing Change X 60/Deg. of Bearing Change

and then: D= Time X TAS (nm/min)= Time for BRG Change/Deg. of Brg. Change

3.) Airways that run in between NDB's as opposed to VOR's. Theres a bunch around the Bahama's and a couple near Key West. The ones in the Bahamas are referred to as BR (Bahama Route), and colored green. I understand theres quite a few up in Alaska as well. Not sure how the different colors work though (Amber, Green, etc.).

4.) I know I should know this but I have no idea.

5.) ATC expects you to reverse course to join the final as soon as you're cleared for the approach.

6.) Well, by the time you reach that fix. But if its an arc to an approach, you wouldn't really cross directly over the fix, so I'd say the MCA doesn't apply...

7.) Don't know. Except that I usually query ATC if I see that I'm getting really close to the final and they haven't cleared me yet.

8.) Well, its one of the things under 91.175 that, if you have it in sight, you can go below DH/MDA. Is that what you're asking?

9.) Not really familiar with Overhead maneuvers, but if you're cleared for a visual approach, you're expected to proceed to the airport in a "normal manner" (I think thats how the AIM words it). I guess it depends on your definition of "normal".

10.) I dont have a PHX sectional, but in other congested areas with a lot of VOR's (i.e. the Northeast Corridor) they sometimes leave the compass rose off in the interest of keeping things less cluttered.

11.) Transition Altitude- The altitude near an airport at or below which the vertical position of the aircraft is controlled by reference to altitudes (MSL).

Transition Level- The lowest usable flight level above the Trans. Alt.

I got that from the definitions in the front of my Airway Manual. Can you clear that up a little MikeD? I don't really understand what its referring to...

Alright, grade away...this is gonna be rough, I can tell.
 

sbav8r

New Member
I only knew a few of those and eatsleep beat me to them.

4. Are obstacles shown or depicted? Are the heights shown?
 

E_Dawg

Moderator
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11.) Transition Altitude- The altitude near an airport at or below which the vertical position of the aircraft is controlled by reference to altitudes (MSL).

Transition Level- The lowest usable flight level above the Trans. Alt.

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Ah ha! There's one I kinda know a little....

Basically the US has transition levels; it's always FL180 (the altitude at which the altimeter is set to the local field elivation). In Europe the level might be different (it changes from area to area for some reason).

The definition of Transition Altitude (The altitude near an airport at or below which the vertical position of the aircraft is controlled by reference to altitudes (MSL)) basically means that above the altitude the aircraft is controlled by reference to pressure levels, not MSL altitudes.

As for why the transition level would be higher than the transition altitude I have no idea (aside from lower than standard pressure, which varies by the conditions, not the area).
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
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Alright, I'll give them a whirl. I don't have any instrument students at the moment, so I need to keep my IFR sharp....

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Excellent work overall

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1.) 200 (?). All I really know about MLS is that the azimuth is wider, and extends further and higher than an ILS.[

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You, sir, are correct. MLS has a 200 channel capability. MLS can still be found at a few airports. Fayetteville, Arkansas used to have one. I know that Andrews and Dyess AFB still have them.

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2.) Well, even if they did have DME, they couldnt find time/distance to an NDB. Theres two ways..."Double the Angle on the Bow" is one. If you hold a given heading, the time it takes for the RB to double is the time to the station. Another way is to first find the time to station by:

Time= Min. for Bearing Change X 60/Deg. of Bearing Change

and then: D= Time X TAS (nm/min)= Time for BRG Change/Deg. of Brg. Change

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An easier way to compute time/distance from an NDB is to turn the aircraft and place the bearing pointer on the nearest 90 degree index. Hack the clock and maintain heading. When the bearing pointer moves 10 degrees, note the elapsed time in seconds. Divide the elapsed time in seconds by the degrees of bearing change to determine time from the station. Example bearing pointer moves 10 degrees in 3 minutes. Therefore 180 seconds/10= 18 minutes from the station. Multiply your GS in NM/MIN by the minutes from the station to get distance from the station.
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3.) Airways that run in between NDB's as opposed to VOR's. Theres a bunch around the Bahama's and a couple near Key West. The ones in the Bahamas are referred to as BR (Bahama Route), and colored green. I understand theres quite a few up in Alaska as well. Not sure how the different colors work though (Amber, Green, etc.).

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Correct. The L/MF airways (colored airways) use the L/MF navaids and are depicted in brown on the aeronautical charts, and identified by color and number (ie- Red 3). East/west plotted airways are colored green and red, while north/south airways are colored amber and blue. In the CONUS, parts of V290 in North Carolina are L/MF airways. These are mostly found in Alaska.
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4.) I know I should know this but I have no idea.


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sbav8tr got the first part right. Civil SIDS don't depict any obstacles. They also don't depict ATC climb gradients. They do depict minimum climb gradients, but not ATC gradients. Example: You have an airport with an elevation of 1,504'. After departure, you have your first fix of at or above 5000', 11.5 NM from the runway. The minimum climb gradient depicted is 270 ft/NM for obstacle clearance, but what's not depicted is the minimum climb gradient needed to meet the first crossing restriction. By using the formula of ALT-field elev/ distance, we get the ATC min climb gradient of 5000'-1504'/11.5 = 304 ft/NM, which differs from the obstacle climb gradient. The obstacle climb gradient will keep you clear of obstacles, but not necessarily allow you to meet published altitude restrictions. Therefore, always good to double-check the ATC climb gradient necessary by using the formula.

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5.) ATC expects you to reverse course to join the final as soon as you're cleared for the approach.

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Unfortunately incorrect, and a common mistake by pilots. A normal hold is depicted on an approach plate by a thin (light black line), while a Holding-In-Lieu-Of Procedure Turn is depicted the same as a hold, but with heavy black line (in the plan view), and is located on the final approach course just prior to the FAF or glideslope intercept (shown in profile view with opposite course numbers and arrows, ie 270, with 090 under it, or vice versa). It's different from a regular hold since it's actually a Procedure Turn in and of itself, just like the 45/180 or 80/260 is considered a PT. In a normal hold, when cleared for the approach, it's legal to "cut the turn early" and turn back to the fix and commence the approach, that's what ATC expects you to do. In a HILO PT, hold, if cleared for the approach, ATC expects you to complete the holding pattern and commence the approach without making any additional turns in holding (altitude permitting). If an additional turn in hold is needed, request clearance from ATC. This is because, generally, HILO PTs have a descent incorporated on the inbound leg to the FAF/glideslope intercept, and descent to the inbound altitude is not permitted until established on the inbound course. Many IAPs have this type of PT, and many pilots incorrectly fly them. Reference Tucson, AZ VOR or TACAN 11L, or Casa Grande VOR 5 IAPs, to name a few.

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6.) Well, by the time you reach that fix. But if its an arc to an approach, you wouldn't really cross directly over the fix, so I'd say the MCA doesn't apply...

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The restriction still would need to be complied with. The point of the question is that with an altitude restriction depicted at a fix defined as an intersection of a radial and an arc, the restriction must be complied with no later than the completion of the lead turn associated with that fix.

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7.) Don't know. Except that I usually query ATC if I see that I'm getting really close to the final and they haven't cleared me yet.

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The question refers to if you're already receiving guidance from the final controller on a GCA, or Ground Controlled Approach. The controller is constantly talking to you after the final descent point (usually 8-9 miles out) which is why the pilot is told just prior to that point "do not acknowlege further transmissions". The controller speaks quick with momentary pauses with items like slightly left of course, slightly below glideslope, and drones on just like that. Since the guidance of your aircraft is being done by him, if no transmissions are received for 5 seconds on a PAR, 15 seconds on an ASR, or 1 minute in the radar pattern prior to final, query ATC, or execute missed approach.

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8.) Well, its one of the things under 91.175 that, if you have it in sight, you can go below DH/MDA. Is that what you're asking?

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Correct, it's a VASI system. What I'm getting at is how does this particular system work? Much in the sense that VASI differs from PAPI differs from tri-color differs from PVASI, though they're all VASI systems. The OLS appears as two sets of green datum lights arranged horizontally with a large yellow light in-between. Same as the type of VASI found on aircraft carriers, when the yellow light (or ball) goes above the datum lights, you're high, when it goes below the datum, you're low. Object is to keep the ball centered. Red "waveoff" lights are also installed and can be activated by the tower to send you around along with a radio call. OLS systems are the only VASIs installed at Yuma International Airport/Yuma MCAS, a joint-use field; and I include a question about them here, since a civil pilot landing at that field will see and need to use the OLS, especially during IMC.

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9.) Not really familiar with Overhead maneuvers, but if you're cleared for a visual approach, you're expected to proceed to the airport in a "normal manner" (I think thats how the AIM words it). I guess it depends on your definition of "normal".

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Overhead maneuver refers to the 360 overhead, where the aircraft flies up "initial" and executes a break turn to downwind no earlier than the approach end, but commonly at midfield. A common misnomer with being cleared for a visual approach (in VMC obviously) by ATC is that at tower controlled fields, when the aircraft reports "initial for the overhead", IFR automatically terminates; since the overhead pattern is a VFR maneuver. If that same aircraft is cleared for a visual approach to an uncontrolled field, the crew may not execute an overhead approach unles they previously cancel IFR with center/TRACON prior to switching to the CTAF frequency.

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10.) I dont have a PHX sectional, but in other congested areas with a lot of VOR's (i.e. the Northeast Corridor) they sometimes leave the compass rose off in the interest of keeping things less cluttered.

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Makes sense. But normally, a compass rose is only required to be depicted if airways actually run through the NAVAID. At Williams-Gateway, there's a VORTAC, but it's used for the field's approach procedures only with no airways going through it. Hence, no compass rose required

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11.) Transition Altitude- The altitude near an airport at or below which the vertical position of the aircraft is controlled by reference to altitudes (MSL).

Transition Level- The lowest usable flight level above the Trans. Alt.

I got that from the definitions in the front of my Airway Manual. Can you clear that up a little MikeD? I don't really understand what its referring to...


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This is a strange one that I still don't fully understand why it's done. I should've clarified the question by saying that this is found only in ICAO, or internationally. In the US, transition altitude and transition level are one and the same. Cross FL180, and you switch from QNH (your altimeter setting) to QNE (29.92), and vice versa. No problemo. When I was flying in Kuwait not too long ago, things were all dicked up there. For one, the transition level and the transition altitude weren't the same. Transition level is the lowest flight level available for use above the transition altitude, and is usually passed to aircraft during approach and landing clearances. Transition altitude is the altitude for departing aircraft where one switches to QNE (29.92), normally never below 3000' Height Above Airport. Also in Kuwait, QNH was never used. QFE is used for patterns, approaches, etc; so when you land, your altimeter reads zero(ie- your altimeter reads AGL). So in Kuwait, the transition altitude was 3000', and the transition level was FL50 (5000'). That meant for takeoff, you'd have the QFE altimeter setting set and your altitude reads zero on the ground. On departure, passing 3000' you must automatically switch to 29.92 (QNE). On arrival, passing 5000' QNE (FL50) you must switch to the QFE altimeter setting from ATIS. All the approach plates reflected AGL altitudes, and in the landing pattern, the pattern altitude was 1500', and your altimeter read 1500'. Flying in many European countries, there's the same regs.

Why they do this, I have no clue.


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Alright, grade away...this is gonna be rough, I can tell.


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Negative on the roughness. Excellent work overall.

MD
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
Cool MikeD, thanks a bunch. I'm going to print that out put it in with my IFR notes.

(Kicking myself for not getting that HILO PT question...doh!)
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
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Cool MikeD, thanks a bunch. I'm going to print that out put it in with my IFR notes.

(Kicking myself for not getting that HILO PT question...doh!)


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If you're planning on printing my quiz question/answers out and including them in your IFR notes for later use, there's something I must insist on................................that you print and include the pic of General Ripper too.
 

albatross

New Member
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Well, even if they did have DME, they couldnt find time/distance to an NDB

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Here's a question from one of the ignorant, or "a ignert", as we like to say in Indiana. How's come? Why wouldn't the DME allow you to find time/distance to an NDB?

Sincerely,

Ignert
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
Read AIM 1-1-7 for specifics, but basically, DME works off from VOR-DME or VORTAC facilities only. Now, if you have a GPS, you can certainly find time/distance to an NDB. But not with DME....
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
Yeah....bored out of my mind at work. No students today, but gotta stick around to please the boss. So, I'm getting paid to surf Jetcareers all day. Fine by me I guess...
 

albatross

New Member
As long as you gettin paaiid!
I'm supposed to be polishing up cover letters, but this is much more fun. But then, I think drill pressing my hand would also be more fun. This hurts less, though.
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
I hardly consider $6.10/hr. "getting paid"...its more like being an indentured servant, who occasionally gets to fly.
 

albatross

New Member
$6.10 an hour. Ouch. There are a lot of unhelpful comparisons I could make to people who get a lot less training to flip burgers for a living, but I think ouch sums it up. Do you get any part of the instruction fee when you do fly?
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
Ahhh...now you've got me going, so prepare for a rant.


[rant]
He charges customers $30/hr. (for private), or $35/hr. (instrument) for the instructor. He pays me $1250/month (not counting what I get taxed..which is another rant all together), whether I fly or not. If I fly more than 60 hrs. in a month, I get $13/hr. over 60. I haven't, nor will I likely ever, fly over 60 hrs. a month. I have to be at the office 9 hours a day, 6 days a week. Of that 55 hrs. a week, I fly 10 on a good week. Some weeks I haven't flown at all. So, if you do the math....wow, which I just did for the first time with a calculator....I actually make $5.68/hr before taxes. On top of that, I have to pay for my own currency, charts, and upgrades to the 182's and 210. My boss is the Antichrist. I hope he reads this...(he won't). I really enjoy instructing a lot, and I fully realize no instructing job is high pay, but this guy's walking all over me!

[/rant]

Sorry for ranting...but you asked.
 

albatross

New Member
No need to apologize, rant away! Those are some pretty grim numbers...

Ah, well, hell, your racking up a few hours, I guess. You'll move on to something better, then you'll look back on this and laugh... well maybe not. Meanwhile, keep slugging away and from time to time imagine pushing your boss out of a 182 or something.
 
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