B-17 Crash / Hartford Ct (BDL closed)

NovemberEcho

Dergs favorite member
Agreed. Generally speaking, it seems so many pilots are hesitant to use the “E word”. Have heard ATC sometimes have to drag it out of them.

Not saujng related here, just a general observation of civil aviation.
I’ve said it before on here but I I’ll say it again, the only fatality I’ve worked would probably still be alive if he had just declared emergency when he had an issue instead of being all vague and making me declare for him. Those 20-30 seconds or whatever it was probably would have gotten him that 1/2 mile to the runway instead of the trees. If you have an emergency, or think you might, just declare.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member

Crop Duster

Babyfarcs McGeezaks
I flew with him in the 17 a couple months ago, and I would have again. I am super ageist too, but Mac was sharp. Not to say this won’t end up as pilot error, it most likely will be.
If you read the NTSB reports, it almost ALWAYS is. :(
 

JeppUpdater

Well-Known Member
I went back to our photos from the flight in "Nine-O-Nine" last year. One of the photos caught who I believe to be the accident pilot pushing a prop through during preflight on the right-most outboard engine. At the engine next to him was a young kid, probably 4 or 5, trying to pull the inboard prop through, presumably to copy the pilot. A simple reminder of the inspiration these planes bring those who come to see them, or just see them flying by.


Views from her in better days:




 

Crop Duster

Babyfarcs McGeezaks
He was sharp hell a decade ago, which is the only reference I have. But I'm not just afraid, but terrified, of aged pilots. If anyone were the exception, he would be.
There are generalizations. There are specifics. Do most people age out? Sure. Are there some who fly competently into their 80's, some fewer who fly into their 90s? Yup. I know a number of them - and I'm probably more critical than most regarding pilot incompetency. Personally, if an octogenarian is healthy and vibrant, I'll take an octogenarian every day of the week over a 20-something child of the magenta.
 

NickH

Dank Meme
Personally, if an octogenarian is healthy and vibrant, I'll take an octogenarian every day of the week over a 20-something child of the magenta.
Me too! But the number of octogenarians in that condition I've met is zero. The number of septuagenarian pilots I've met in that condition is zero. It's absolutely a generalization, but if anything can be generalized, this is it.
 

Crop Duster

Babyfarcs McGeezaks
Me too! But the number of octogenarians in that condition I've met is zero. The number of septuagenarian pilots I've met in that condition is zero. It's absolutely a generalization, but if anything can be generalized, this is it.
Maybe you need to get out more. ;) I agree with your generalization, but there really are great older pilots out there.
 

Inverted

The journey is the meat in the goal sandwich
I wont go into too much detail on our training, but we do 61.58 annual checks of all PICs, annual ground school recurrent training for all pilots. There are currency requirements as well.
 

Crop Duster

Babyfarcs McGeezaks
And there are great younger pilots!
Ah, yeeeaaah. I took that as a given in the equation. I mean, all great older pilots were once promising great younger pilots, hmm?

Assuming practice and experience make a better pilot and no other variables, and given x = a great pilot, and t = time, and x + t = x1
then x1 > x, and x1 + t > x1, ...

We might be more careful how we observe the world around us. Despite the current zeitgeist, everything-freaking-thing is not oppositional and/or a zero-sum game.
 
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FlyingAccountant

Well-Known Member
I wasn't sure if I was a better pilot than my father when he was 70. He's now 76 and I'm worried about his driving. The issue of age will always spark some spirited conversations.
My dad is 63 and I've noticed some degradation in his driving skills - mostly spatial orientation type stuff. I would imagine that would become a bit more amplified in an airplane. My grandpa was a pilot, flew B17s in WW2 ironically enough and single engine props in his civilian life, and I wouldn't have wanted him anywhere near an airplane when he was 70. He could barely park a car let alone fly an airplane. I think he knew there was a decline and sold his Bonanza well before he got there though.
 

WacoFan

Bigly
PFEs were professional FEs, those guys who were A&Ps and got their FE ticket and flew as such, never going to move up to the front seats. SOs, or Second Officers, were pilots with FE tickets who sat the FE position and were awaiting the move to FO at some point. Airlines used both. I think Doug even remembers some of the last PFEs at SJI.
Knew some PFE's that were friends of Grandpa's and S.O.'s as well. He was in charge of hiring for a bit in the early 60's and was able to hire pilots, some of which would serve as S.O.'s, but did not hire PFE's. The last working PFE I knew was sometime in the late 80's/early 90's in Houston who worked on Aramco's DC-8's.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
Knew some PFE's that were friends of Grandpa's and S.O.'s as well. He was in charge of hiring for a bit in the early 60's and was able to hire pilots, some of which would serve as S.O.'s, but did not hire PFE's. The last working PFE I knew was sometime in the late 80's/early 90's in Houston who worked on Aramco's DC-8's.
the PFEs definitely knew the airplane like the back of their hands. A flying Joe Patroni
 

WacoFan

Bigly
the PFEs definitely knew the airplane like the back of their hands. A flying Joe Patroni
Agree. There was also a time when Captains at TWA, when hitting 60, wouldn't want to retire yet (maybe alimony from first wife, recovering from bad investments, etc) and they would slide into the FE seat because I think the FE's could retire at 70 or something.
 

arkflyr

Well-Known Member
Agree. There was also a time when Captains at TWA, when hitting 60, wouldn't want to retire yet (maybe alimony from first wife, recovering from bad investments, etc) and they would slide into the FE seat because I think the FE's could retire at 70 or something.
ROPEs, retired,old, pilot, engineers.

On some other forum an old TWA guy explained the whole FEIA vs ALPA thing at the dawn of the jet age. That caused massive pilot hiring because they got the requirement that there be three pilots on the flight deck of all jet aircraft, until the FEs could be made into pilots. Flying The Line has a chapter or two on it as well.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
Agree. There was also a time when Captains at TWA, when hitting 60, wouldn't want to retire yet (maybe alimony from first wife, recovering from bad investments, etc) and they would slide into the FE seat because I think the FE's could retire at 70 or something.
The only reason I remember that was because one day back in the mid-90s jumpseating to PHX on a UAL jet, there was this old 4-striper sitting in the FE seat. I believe for them it was 64 they could revert back, but the PFEs had a 70 or something age limit. It's been awhile. Anyhow after showing the Capt my company badge and paperwork, the Capt/FE asked to see my badge and began comparing my name to his black book list lol.

Of course, this was back in the day where to JS, you just went through security and right to the gate of the flight you wanted to JS on, and coordinated it with the gate agent.
 

Springer

Well-Known Member
...and I wouldn't have wanted him anywhere near an airplane when he was 70. He could barely park a car let alone fly an airplane. I think he knew there was a decline and sold his Bonanza well before he got there though.
Pssst, don't tell anyone but 70 is the new 60.
 
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