average time to learn all the maneuvers for CPL

Mobkeyxian

New Member
Hi, I'm not sure if i'm posting in the right section of the forum, so apologies if I made an error.

So basically, I have about 100 hours so far total time and have my PPL and instrument rating. I need to build time for commercial, so I was wondering if any experienced CFI can tell me what is the average amount of time a student need to learn all the maneuvers to pass the checkride for CPL. I'm not an genius nor a slow learner, I would say i'm average for a student. I passed my PPL checkride at about 48 hours.

And lastly, I have been researching what schools I should go to get my CPL training. and some schools told me that i should get my Commercial single engine then get a multiengine rating addon. and I have also spoke to school that only have Multiengine commercial with single engine addon. obviously each school only say the good things about their program. So I was hoping if someone here can give me their honest opinion. My ultimate goal is to fly for the airline.

Oh and if is not too much to ask for, I have another question.
I failed both of my checkride once (PPL and Instrument) my PPL check ride i failed the oral portion due to using an expired sectional chart and my instrument i failed during the flight portion (only during the loc approach i descended before reaching the FAF because I misread the approach plate. There were 2 radials off of an vor and i looked at the wrong one I decended before reaching the actual vor radial (FAF). how badly will this affect my chance at working for an large airline later down the line such as american united or delta? should I just give up now and pick another path?
 

Low&Slow

Ancora imparo
The rules have changed, so it might be different now compared to before the rule change. You are no longer required to do the commercial pilot certificate practical test in a complex airplane. You still have to get 10 hrs of complex training though (14 CFR 61.129).
So, you could do the checkride in a Cessna 150 if you want to instead of a Piper Arrow, Cessna 172RG, or similar. That might make the maneuvers easier to master.
Averages aren't necessarily the best metric to guesstimate how long it will take for you to master the maneuvers, which is what you really want to know. How often you plan to fly, how much you can afford financially, how deeply you study the material, and how quickly you learn the material and maneuvers are also considerations that will affect your time to be checkride ready.
So, I wouldn't worry about it. If it takes you 1 hour or 100 hours, you still have to build 150 more hrs, so you have plenty of time to work on mastering all of the maneuvers.
 
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Mobkeyxian

New Member
thanks low&slow. now im just worried about my failed check rides :(
I have no idea if it will affect my dream of becoming a airline pilot. as i read through a lot of the airline recruitment page. all wants to check your history. so this will look very bad. especially if I want to fly for an large airline like american, united or delta. what can i do? I'm assuming there is no way to have my fail record removed? such as extra training or anything?
 

///AMG

Well-Known Member
I'm NOT a CFI, so I don't have any real data to share, but I was a pretty average CPL student, and I'd say it took me a couple-three flights to start getting the hang of the more challenging maneuvers. You'll probably do more than that to check all the other boxes of a 141 syllabus if you are doing that (I did), but learning a basic instrument + outside the airplane scan isn't rocket science. The tolerances, if I recall correctly, are fairly forgiving of small errors in stick/throttle mechanics.

As for airlines, i.e. majors, I don't know the exact answer, but between now and then, you have a good number of years and probably 3000+ hours to build before you are competitive. My guess is that this time will be more important to them than your PPL or IR check ride failures when you had less than 5% of the hours they are likely looking for at the time. Learn from your failures, and don't make the same mistakes going forward.
 
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killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
I am no expert, but I suspect that as long as you don't make a habit of failing checkrides, they will not affect you in the long run. Just don't keep failing them and establish a pattern.

As far as CPL maneuvers - the best advice I can give you is to fly as frequently as possible when you're working on them, and to chair-fly the maneuvers when you aren't in the airplane. It took me a lot longer to do my CPL than it should have because I kept having to take breaks in my training because of work, instructor schedules, airplane availability.

Get your 10 hours in whatever complex airplane or TAA you need, but I would practice the maneuvers and do the checkride in the same airplane - whatever airplane you have the *most* access to and you're most familiar with. When you fly your XCs, work some maneuvers into it (climb to altitude with Chandelles, if possible, for example, and fly some Lazy 8s along the way, if you can.)

Good luck.
 

Flying Ninja

Need More Flight Time!
I wouldn't worry about your check ride failures. Regional airlines are hiring people with less than half a brain these days. Just be humble and explain why you failed and be honest. Don't fail any more check rides.

As far as your record, it's history, and it'll stay in your pilot records long after you're dead.
 

tcco94

Professional GTA V Pilot
Focus on the goal at hand, don't stress about the past. This is a long journey, you will have hiccups. We all do. If you dwell on it and keep it on your mind you will only continue to stress yourself out more and fail more. Think positive, think about passing, be confident and you'll be fine. We all know it's stressful, scary, and exciting at the same time to look at the future and how close it is. Try to channel that into positivity.

Don't worry about the airlines right now. When the interview comes then come back for help/advice on what to say and how to approach telling people about your failures. You can still be very successful in this industry with failures. Remember, you gotta fail to succeed. Good luck, bud!
 

shdw

Well-Known Member
I hate to be the “it depends” person here, but it really depends!

How solid of a foundation do you have?

Will your CFI care if you can properly, visually, judge the maneuver? Or will he/she just make you hit the numbers on the instruments? The later will get you done sooner, but is doing you a massive disservice in my opinion. Sadly this is what most instructors do as many of them are unsure how to perform the commercial maneuvers with a covered instrument panel.

For instance, will you learn that at the apex of a lazy 8, as the nose begins to fall, you actually will pull back slightly more to effectively stall through the 90. Sure you can fly it through, but that mitigates the capstone of a lazy 8s purpose; that is the ability to manage the aircraft through its full range of flying speeds.

Another example, will you learn to accomplish a power off 180 without slips and s-turns, but instead with proper judgement of visual cues? I’m not saying you shouldn’t learn slips and S-turns. However, before you learn the tricks to fix bad flying, you should learn to glide well. You can get this with a few lessons with an old time glider instructor if you can find one in your area. Trust me, the judgement of a gliding aircraft is no different from a Schweitzer to a jet. In fact, if you’ve read stick and rudder you’ll come to learn that it’s easier to judge the glide of an aircraft the faster the aircraft is going. I used to teach gliding flight at a trimmed 120 knots (using roughly half power just to increase the time) in a 172 before going to the power off 180s.

As for your experience and level of learning, with a good instructor who is also demanding I’d say 8-12 hours to truly master those maneuvers visually. With the more typical good instrument instructor making you smack the numbers to pass the ride you’ll probably take 5-7 hours.

Good luck and I’ll leave you with a did you know...Did you know that with about 15 minutes of training a pilot with zero hours of experience can be taught to slow a plane from cruise speed to enter slow flight with the instrument panel completely covered within commercial pts/acs standards? (PS Instuctur pulls the power and works the flaps; pilot just flies.)
 
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killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
I hate to be the “it depends” person here, but it really depends!

How solid of a foundation do you have?

Will your CFI care if you can properly, visually, judge the maneuver? Or will he/she just make you hit the numbers on the instruments? The later will get you done sooner, but is doing you a massive disservice in my opinion. Sadly this is what most instructors do as many of them are unsure how to perform the commercial maneuvers with a covered instrument panel.

For instance, will you learn that at the apex of a lazy 8, as the nose begins to fall, you actually will pull back slightly more to effectively stall through the 90. Sure you can fly it through, but that mitigates the capstone of a lazy 8s purpose; that is the ability to manage the aircraft through its full range of flying speeds.

Another example, will you learn to accomplish a power off 180 without slips and s-turns, but instead with proper judgement of visual cues? I’m not saying you shouldn’t learn slips and S-turns. However, before you learn the tricks to fix bad flying, you should learn to glide well. You can get this with a few lessons with an old time glider instructor if you can find one in your area. Trust me, the judgement of a gliding aircraft is no different from a Schweitzer to a jet. In fact, if you’ve read stick and rudder you’ll come to learn that it’s easier to judge the glide of an aircraft the faster the aircraft is going. I used to teach gliding flight at a trimmed 120 knots (using roughly half power just to increase the time) in a 172 before going to the power off 180s.

As for your experience and level of learning, with a good instructor who is also demanding I’d say 8-12 hours to truly master those maneuvers visually. With the more typical good instrument instructor making you smack the numbers to pass the ride you’ll probably take 5-7 hours.

Good luck and I’ll leave you with a did you know...Did you know that with about 15 minutes of training a pilot with zero hours of experience can be taught to slow a plane from cruise speed to enter slow flight with the instrument panel completely covered within commercial pts/acs standards? (PS Instuctur pulls the power and works the flaps; pilot just flies.)
The horizon/cowling relationship is a wonderful tool, indeed.
 

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
I've been a 121 FO for lat least 11 years. Not sure if I could teach or perform lazy 8s to save my life.
I pretty much had to re-learn all of the PPL/CSEL maneuvers recently. Flying them from the right seat, following slightly different procedures.

It would come back to you pretty quickly, I think.
 

huntfishvote

Active Member
For anyone using the search bar, it took me about 3 weeks and 4.5 hours of flight time.
Lazy eights- keep that 30 degree bank in past the 90 degree point just enough so when you roll out to wings level you’re at the same alt and airspeed.
Eights on pylons - pylon moves back, pitch back; pylon moves forward, pitch forward.
Chandelle is easy.
 

AA34

Well-Known Member
You still have to get 10 hrs of complex training though (14 CFR 61.129).
After reading the FAR this past week I believe even this is gone now if you have 10 hours in a turbine or TAA (ie G1000) correct?

I’ve tried calling FSDO but they are closed due to government shutdown.
 

KaiGywer

Well-Known Member
After reading the FAR this past week I believe even this is gone now if you have 10 hours in a turbine or TAA (ie G1000) correct?

I’ve tried calling FSDO but they are closed due to government shutdown.
Correct. Complex or TAA counts.
 

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
After reading the FAR this past week I believe even this is gone now if you have 10 hours in a turbine or TAA (ie G1000) correct?

I’ve tried calling FSDO but they are closed due to government shutdown.
Correct. Complex or TAA counts.
Does it have to be noted in the logbook that the TAA/Complex time was training toward the CSEL? In other words, if you did all of your Private training in a TAA, that time wouldn't ALSO count toward the CSEL - you can't double-dip, is my understanding, but I'm fuzzy on that math.

EDIT - this is something I will hunt down for sure - I should know the answer to this and I don't.
 

KaiGywer

Well-Known Member
Does it have to be noted in the logbook that the TAA/Complex time was training toward the CSEL? In other words, if you did all of your Private training in a TAA, that time wouldn't ALSO count toward the CSEL - you can't double-dip, is my understanding, but I'm fuzzy on that math.

EDIT - this is something I will hunt down for sure - I should know the answer to this and I don't.
Per 61.129:

(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least -
[...]
(ii) 10 hours of training in a complex airplane, a turbine-powered airplane, or a technically advanced airplane (TAA) that meets the requirements of paragraph (j) of this section, or any combination thereof. The airplane must be appropriate to land or sea for the rating sought;


So the way I read this, there is no notation required. 61.127(b)(1) says:

(b)Areas of operation.
(1) For an airplane category rating with a single-engine class rating:
(i) Preflight preparation;
(ii) Preflight procedures;
(iii) Airport and seaplane base operations;
(iv) Takeoffs, landings, and go-arounds;
(v) Performance maneuvers;
(vi) Ground reference maneuvers;
(vii) Navigation;
(viii) Slow flight and stalls;
(ix) Emergency operations;
(x) High-altitude operations; and
(xi) Postflight procedures.


I will personally be doing my CSEL in a Cessna 140 as I already have a lot of complex dual time logged.
 

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Per 61.129:

(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least -
[...]
(ii) 10 hours of training in a complex airplane, a turbine-powered airplane, or a technically advanced airplane (TAA) that meets the requirements of paragraph (j) of this section, or any combination thereof. The airplane must be appropriate to land or sea for the rating sought;


So the way I read this, there is no notation required. 61.127(b)(1) says:

(b)Areas of operation.
(1) For an airplane category rating with a single-engine class rating:
(i) Preflight preparation;
(ii) Preflight procedures;
(iii) Airport and seaplane base operations;
(iv) Takeoffs, landings, and go-arounds;
(v) Performance maneuvers;
(vi) Ground reference maneuvers;
(vii) Navigation;
(viii) Slow flight and stalls;
(ix) Emergency operations;
(x) High-altitude operations; and
(xi) Postflight procedures.


I will personally be doing my CSEL in a Cessna 140 as I already have a lot of complex dual time logged.
Yeah, makes sense.

Y'know what? I think I'm conflating this with the instrument training in the CSEL vs. TAA/Complex.
 
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