ATP/Type Ride/FOQ Complete... and a little extra.

Firebird2XC

Well-Known Member
First at my company, too! Damn, it feels good to have that behind me.

As I was part of the two volunteer test class, the local feds and managers were all over things.

Do I feel safer? Yes. As Boris once stated, and I paraphrase, "Experience is good. Education is good. Both is better."

I feel like I have more of both now- the training I got was really excellent. They really worked to encourage not only profile flying in various modes of flight, but greater SA, decision making, and CRM facilitation. After the "wham, bam, thank you ma'am" of new hire training, this supplement to my training regimen was really neat.

In addition, this changed the dynamic of a Captain's ride a bit. At my company, we get 9 sim periods during actual upgrade. As our final ride for that event will now be a PC, not a double-bust loaded ride, it allows for a little less anxiety and a lot more focus on the process itself. Just my opinion, mind you, but I think it matters.

This is definitely going to change the way FOs at my airline approach operations. Some will still just sit there like crap on a toilet seat, but for others- it'll really help them spool up their game.

... and for me personally.. I really bet a lot on this whole concept. I put my name on it.. in the press.. in the papers. It's a big relief to see it work.

Cheers.

If we try, we focus, we push, and we don't give up- we can change things. We can make them safer for daily operations, and better for our professional and career environment as well.
 

dasleben

That's just, like, your opinion, man
Good deal, and congrats! I'm glad people are taking the idea of a full type seriously. I know that when I typed on my current aircraft, my outlook was that of "Well, my certificate says I'm PIC typed in this thing; I'd better act like it." Of course, that doesn't mean that any FO should be the "Right Seat Captain," but rather that you can better bring your own personal perspectives and judgments to the table when necessary.
 

SteveC

Really?
Staff member
Can you describe what this is all about? I'm guessing it's some kind of staggered training/testing event for upgrade and ATP?

Oh, and congrats on....yeah....congrats!!! :)
 

Autothrust Blue

"I'll take your case."
Can you describe what this is all about? I'm guessing it's some kind of staggered training/testing event for upgrade and ATP?

Oh, and congrats on....yeah....congrats!!! :)
It is American Eagle's implementation of the HR5900 ATP/full type rating mandate.

Firebird2XC, I'm curious...are they ever getting AQP over there?
 

Firebird2XC

Well-Known Member
Good deal, and congrats! I'm glad people are taking the idea of a full type seriously. I know that when I typed on my current aircraft, my outlook was that of "Well, my certificate says I'm PIC typed in this thing; I'd better act like it." Of course, that doesn't mean that any FO should be the "Right Seat Captain," but rather that you can better bring your own personal perspectives and judgments to the table when necessary.
I'm with you, but I think the 'Right seat captain' thing could use a little tweaking. I prefer to think of it as this- a redundancy to flight management or flight control systems is required, why not those who actuate them?

The closer we can bring First Officer training, skill sets, and thinking to a Captain level, the better. It's part of the Captain's duties to develop First Officers as potential Captains. Now instead of training departments doing the bare minimum and foisting the rest on line Captains, things are getting front loaded a bit more.

No First Officer should be using their training or level of certification to try to circumvent or undermine their Captain, however- on that I fully agree. The Captain is the absolute and final authority aboard the aircraft- that is as it is because it simply cannot be otherwise. My advocacy of First Officers to train and think like Captains is so that First Officers have a better functional knowledge of what really needs to be accomplished. By removing the gradient in skill sets, a First Officer becomes that much more useful in the supporting role, and much more likely able to anticipate the needs of their Captain and the situation without adding to the Captain's workload by asking for input prior to acting.

This was readily evident in the 3407 crash- the FO made changes to the aircraft configuration without input or calls from the flying pilot. The response from the Captain? "What the... [expletive] did you do?" People have criticized the actions of that FO repeatedly.

Also- in the rare and unfortunate event that a Captain becomes medically or mentally incapacitated, knowing that the First Officer can manage the situation- not just the airplane- becomes as important as ever. Jet Blue's recent incident showed us that.

A good First Officer should be as actively, readily training and preparing to be Captain as they can. A 'Right Seat Captain'- minus everything but the actual authority- is a very good idea, in my opinion.

In 'We Were Soldiers', LTC Hal Moore made everyone learn the job of the person above them and below them in the chain of command. Therefore, should someone be removed, the system doesn't break down.
 

dasleben

That's just, like, your opinion, man
I'm with you, but I think the 'Right seat captain' thing could use a little tweaking. I prefer to think of it as this- a redundancy to flight management or flight control systems is required, why not those who actuate them?

The closer we can bring First Officer training, skill sets, and thinking to a Captain level, the better. It's part of the Captain's duties to develop First Officers as potential Captains. Now instead of training departments doing the bare minimum and foisting the rest on line Captains, things are getting front loaded a bit more.

No First Officer should be using their training or level of certification to try to circumvent or undermine their Captain, however- on that I fully agree. The Captain is the absolute and final authority aboard the aircraft- that is as it is because it simply cannot be otherwise. My advocacy of First Officers to train and think like Captains is so that First Officers have a better functional knowledge of what really needs to be accomplished. By removing the gradient in skill sets, a First Officer becomes that much more useful in the supporting role, and much more likely able to anticipate the needs of their Captain and the situation without adding to the Captain's workload by asking for input prior to acting.

This was readily evident in the 3407 crash- the FO made changes to the aircraft configuration without input or calls from the flying pilot. The response from the Captain? "What the... [expletive] did you do?" People have criticized the actions of that FO repeatedly.

A good First Officer should be as actively, readily training and preparing to be Captain as they can. A 'Right Seat Captain'- minus everything but the actual authority- is a very good idea, in my opinion.

In 'We Were Soldiers', LTC Hal Moore made everyone learn the job of the person above them and below them in the chain of command. Therefore, should someone be removed, the system doesn't break down.
Good post, agree 100%. My "Right Seat Captain" comment was meant to say that the FO shouldn't attempt to undermine the PIC's authority unless safety or legality is in jeopardy.

Case in point, as the FO (or IRO depending on the leg), I do the performance calculations, check planned/actual takeoff weight, souls on board, etc. When I'm done, I print all the paperwork out and hand it over to the CA to sign. However, rather than simply sitting there and hoping it's correct, I go through my own routine first to independently verify the information before handing it over. This makes sure that we have two sets of eyes on the performance numbers, keeps the CA from taking responsibility for any errors I make, and prepares me to do the same when I move over to that seat.
 

Firebird2XC

Well-Known Member
Can you describe what this is all about? I'm guessing it's some kind of staggered training/testing event for upgrade and ATP?

Oh, and congrats on....yeah....congrats!!! :)
Thanks!

'FOQ' is First Officer Qualification- it's Eagle response to implementation of the HR5900 ATP/full type rating mandate.

I.e., the '1500 rule' put forward after the Colgan 3407 crash is seeing implementation in the real world. Actual compliance is required at the airlines by August of next year. To ensure all FOs are trained and line ready by the deadline, AE is starting this August.

AE approached it as such: FOQ combines annual recurrent ground instruction with an additional day of instruction focused towards areas of emphasis for an ATP/PIC type ride. Then, you get a few training simulator periods, followed by an oral, then a checkride in the box. Completion of the program sees the FO leave with an ATP and PIC type rating in their current aircraft.

The training was really excellent, in my opinion. Additional areas of emphasis include FO performed RTOs and single engine operation. There was also heavy emphasis on how to address a situation were the Captain actually incapacitated.. Managing CRM and control of the environment was stressed. I've always been a forward thinker in that realm, but this rounded out a lot for me. Good stuff.
 

Firebird2XC

Well-Known Member
Good post, agree 100%. My "Right Seat Captain" comment was meant to say that the FO shouldn't attempt to undermine the PIC's authority unless safety or legality is in jeopardy.

Case in point, as the FO (or IRO depending on the leg), I do the performance calculations, check planned/actual takeoff weight, souls on board, etc. When I'm done, I print all the paperwork out and hand it over to the CA to sign. However, rather than simply sitting there and hoping it's correct, I go through my own routine first to independently verify the information before handing it over. This makes sure that we have two sets of eyes on the performance numbers, keeps the CA from taking responsibility for any errors I make, and prepares me to do the same when I move over to that seat.
... exactly. True crew redundancy always helps a situation when critical details come up. Some duties just have to be divided (pre-flight, etc..) but if you're both on the flight deck, why not check everything else?
 

Autothrust Blue

"I'll take your case."
Case in point, as the FO (or IRO depending on the leg), I do the performance calculations, check planned/actual takeoff weight, souls on board, etc. When I'm done, I print all the paperwork out and hand it over to the CA to sign. However, rather than simply sitting there and hoping it's correct, I go through my own routine first to independently verify the information before handing it over. This makes sure that we have two sets of eyes on the performance numbers, keeps the CA from taking responsibility for any errors I make, and prepares me to do the same when I move over to that seat.
You, you mean, people don't do that? ;)

I'm not sure. This cycle makes AQP somewhat difficult, as it puts FOs and CAs on totally separate training tracks between now and next year. FOQ feels more like initial long term than an annual PC.
Harumph, okay. I would think that once all the FOs are done with FOQ, appropriately typed and sanctified and blessed and all that stuff, you could run the same program for both Captain and FO initial and continuing qualification...assuming AQP ever gets under way over there.
 

dasleben

That's just, like, your opinion, man
You, you mean, people don't do that? ;)
I'm sure most do. However, there are a number of FOs at any company who simply say "I'm just the FO," and merely act the part.

I strongly believe that attitude is a big part of what makes a professional pilot (CA or FO), not just technical proficiency. Typing FOs brings a more positive attitude into the right seat.
 

Autothrust Blue

"I'll take your case."
I'm sure most do. However, there are a number of FOs at any company who simply say "I'm just the FO," and merely act the part.
That's nice, but the first time they have a violation and both of them are standing in front of the Big Desk...

We also tend to arrive simultaneously at the scene of an accident...

I strongly believe that attitude is a big part of what makes a professional pilot (CA or FO), not just technical proficiency. Typing FOs brings a more positive attitude into the right seat.
Truer words never spoken.
 

Firebird2XC

Well-Known Member
Harumph, okay. I would think that once all the FOs are done with FOQ, appropriately typed and sanctified and blessed and all that stuff, you could run the same program for both Captain and FO initial and continuing qualification...assuming AQP ever gets under way over there.
Well, once FOQ has run its course, which will take about a year. After that requals are fairly similar, and AQP could come on line then. CA training cycles haven't really changed much, but with the additional ground and sim work FOs are getting alongside standard recurrent doesn't really work well with CA schedules for training.
 

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
Say again in non-airline speak please? :)
In a slightly more cynical view than Firebird's...

It's great that FOs need to have minimum quals now and receive extra training. However, the fact that they can get their ATP and type rating in a NON JEOPARDY PC (where you can bust and retrain two items during the ride and still pass) kind of waters down the ATP and Type rating process. The mantra over here now is that "upgrade training is the new bar to pass" meaning this is pretty much just another rubber stamp operation, much like the SIC types were 8 years ago.

That said, guys can always use the extra training (although here FOs are getting one "prep" sim session and then their PC/ATP/Type ride so I don't know how much training they are actually getting out of the deal), but in general, I don't know how much more qualified and skilled an FO will be after the ride versus before.

All that said, congrats on getting through it Charlie. It's never fun being in the demo group at a property but it sounds like it went well for you.
 

Autothrust Blue

"I'll take your case."
In a slightly more cynical view than Firebird's...

It's great that FOs need to have minimum quals now and receive extra training. However, the fact that they can get their ATP and type rating in a NON JEOPARDY PC (where you can bust and retrain two items during the ride and still pass) kind of waters down the ATP and Type rating process. The mantra over here now is that "upgrade training is the new bar to pass" meaning this is pretty much just another rubber stamp operation, much like the SIC types were 8 years ago.

That said, guys can always use the extra training (although here FOs are getting one "prep" sim session and then their PC/ATP/Type ride so I don't know how much training they are actually getting out of the deal), but in general, I don't know how much more qualified and skilled an FO will be after the ride versus before.

All that said, congrats on getting through it Charlie. It's never fun being in the demo group at a property but it sounds like it went well for you.
Uh, that depends on where you work, actually...
 
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