Atlas NTSB 3/12 investigative update

///AMG

Well-Known Member
I got my CFII in an airplane with a fixed card. After I did primary instrument training with an RMI.

“WE’RE GOING BACKWARDS!”
I'll give some respect where respect is due there. We had an RMI in the planes I was flying, fixed card is cold
 

ppragman

Direct Yeska
/X for the win. The 150 I did the first bit of my private training in had no transponder. Probably about 11 years ago..
My first job was flying a 172/X without any GPS across Alaska dropping off parts for a helicopter company.

The parts I had in the back of the 172 were worth more than the airplane itself. I had no GPS, no moving map, just a chart, a watch and a VOR, which was basically useless down low and Northwest of the Alaska range. I'm amazed I didn't die, but I learned a lot about navigating.

In one of my dumber moves as a lowtime pilot I dead reckoned (albeit accurately) across an undercast outside of any and all VOR coverage when the GAL VOR was out of service. Another time I got lost in the hills in crappy weather going from Illiamna to Aniak without any navaids so I just followed a creek downhill until it dumped into a bigger creek that eventually dumped into the Kuskokwim which I followed until I was able to figure out where I was then continued on to aniak. All without even the quaintest trappings of modernity.

We had no GPS in most of the airplanes, and even then nothing fancier than a KLN89B in the 207 if memory serves. No oversight, no cell service, hell I landed a 172 in a farmer's field near Delta Junction to drop off parts and help change a tail-rotor servo. I got stuck at Rainy Pass Lodge and had to call home base on the radio-phone to tell them I would be late.

What a time to be alive - I'm glad I was 19 and had no fear of death, because I'd probably cry and run away if I had to do that today. It was my first "real" job and I learned so damn much.
 

///AMG

Well-Known Member
In one of my dumber moves as a lowtime pilot I dead reckoned (albeit accurately) across an undercast outside of any and all VOR coverage when the GAL VOR was out of service. Another time I got lost in the hills in crappy weather going from Illiamna to Aniak without any navaids so I just followed a creek downhill until it dumped into a bigger creek that eventually dumped into the Kuskokwim which I followed until I was able to figure out where I was then continued on to aniak. All without even the quaintest trappings of modernity.
Reminds me of my first commercial solo CCX......went down to crescent city, and on the way back, got pushed down into the mountains (albeit lesser ones than in AK) under bad wx. Miracle I was able to find a hole, get to some sort of altitude to raise ATC and get a vector since I couldn't use navaids at whatever altitude I was at. I had forgotten to hit "start" on the old stopwatch if you will. That was real dumb......could have just turned around, but nooo........
 
My first job was flying a 172/X without any GPS across Alaska dropping off parts for a helicopter company.

The parts I had in the back of the 172 were worth more than the airplane itself. I had no GPS, no moving map, just a chart, a watch and a VOR, which was basically useless down low and Northwest of the Alaska range. I'm amazed I didn't die, but I learned a lot about navigating.

In one of my dumber moves as a lowtime pilot I dead reckoned (albeit accurately) across an undercast outside of any and all VOR coverage when the GAL VOR was out of service. Another time I got lost in the hills in crappy weather going from Illiamna to Aniak without any navaids so I just followed a creek downhill until it dumped into a bigger creek that eventually dumped into the Kuskokwim which I followed until I was able to figure out where I was then continued on to aniak. All without even the quaintest trappings of modernity.

We had no GPS in most of the airplanes, and even then nothing fancier than a KLN89B in the 207 if memory serves. No oversight, no cell service, hell I landed a 172 in a farmer's field near Delta Junction to drop off parts and help change a tail-rotor servo. I got stuck at Rainy Pass Lodge and had to call home base on the radio-phone to tell them I would be late.

What a time to be alive - I'm glad I was 19 and had no fear of death, because I'd probably cry and run away if I had to do that today. It was my first "real" job and I learned so damn much.
My first Taylorcraft had no electrical system and one day I broke the fitting for the hand held radio. That was fun. Heck, last year I was “scud” running using my iPhone (that was dumb, let myself get into a situation I shouldn’t have), I went right out and bought a Garmin 660.
 
Last edited:

FalconNIB

Well-Known Member
All I’m saying is we’ve gone too far off one side from the flying /competency part to the HR customer/nice guy side. Training backgrounds, failures, 121 issues/failures, etc.

And the system ignores them and protects them. Up until Colgan, you could fail and then as long as you passed the re-train there was no systematic approach to your training and handling. In his case literally every checkride song the way or 121 event had a failure/disapproval, etc. Systematically, that’s a problem. One off events here and there are fine. But let’s be honest it’s a serious business and sometimes it is okay to tell someone they just aren’t cut out for flying.
I failed my CFI oral 3x when I was 18, nearly 9 years ago. I’ve been through 3 121/135 initial training events and a captain upgrade without the need to repeat a single sim. I’m also a sim instructor for my airline. Should I quit flying? 4500+ hours later, I’m still incident/accident free.
FWIW I knew the FO, and he had no training problems at Mesa.
 
Last edited:

Cherokee_Cruiser

Well-Known Member
I failed my CFI oral 3x when I was 18, nearly 9 years ago. I’ve been through 3 121/135 initial training events and a captain upgrade without the need to repeat a single sim. I’m also a sim instructor for my airline. Should I quit flying? 4500+ hours later, I’m still incident/accident free.
FWIW I knew the FO, and he had no training problems at Mesa.

Ok in your case I’d say 3x on CFI Oral was still for the one event that was CFI certificate. Everything else you passed and did well in flying colors, so no worries. Now if you failed your instrument, then commercial, then this CFI oral 3x, and then your initial PC at your airline, Houston we have a problem.
 

///AMG

Well-Known Member
Never did CFI(II), but I have heard the failure rate is disproportionately high in that endeavor for most folks
 

deadstick

Well-Known Member
I got my CFII in an airplane with a fixed card. After I did primary instrument training with an RMI.
I'll give some respect where respect is due there. We had an RMI in the planes I was flying, fixed card is cold
Y’all realize that over the last few hours Google registered a spike in searches for “fixed card” and “RMI,” right? Keep it up and you’ll break the internets.


You whippersnappers. Back when I got my ratings we had to walk uphill to the plane 2 miles in the snow. And WE LIKED it.

1980s DPE...
47384
 

Hacker15e

Dunning–Kruger Observer
Never did CFI(II), but I have heard the failure rate is disproportionately high in that endeavor for most folks
The FAA has tended to use the CFI checkride(s) as the first real "ball kicker" for certificate-seekers. Unfortunately, since the objective seems to be indiscriminate pick slips to cause intimidation, rather than cause applicants to achieve a higher standard of performance, it hasn't really done anything except cause a lot of otherwise good pilots to have a couple pink slips in their record.
 

trafficinsight

Well-Known Member
The FAA has tended to use the CFI checkride(s) as the first real "ball kicker" for certificate-seekers. Unfortunately, since the objective seems to be indiscriminate pick slips to cause intimidation, rather than cause applicants to achieve a higher standard of performance, it hasn't really done anything except cause a lot of otherwise good pilots to have a couple pink slips in their record.
There was a period of time where our FSDO had a policy of all CFI initials done in house, during that time we had one inspector basically tell us quietly that if students were assigned to a certain other inspector they should just cancel and reschedule because his philosophy was "everyone fails the first try."



Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
 

Ajax

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
There was a period of time where our FSDO had a policy of all CFI initials done in house, during that time we had one inspector basically tell us quietly that if students were assigned to a certain other inspector they should just cancel and reschedule because his philosophy was "everyone fails the first try."



Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
The Fort Worth FSDO had an inspector who jokingly said he didn't have a headset because he never made it to the airplane
 

FalconNIB

Well-Known Member
Ok in your case I’d say 3x on CFI Oral was still for the one event that was CFI certificate. Everything else you passed and did well in flying colors, so no worries. Now if you failed your instrument, then commercial, then this CFI oral 3x, and then your initial PC at your airline, Houston we have a problem.
I understand where you’re coming from. Everyone has a bad day. In my case, I simply couldn’t teach material to the examiners satisfaction. It was never a “skills” problem.

Checkrides can be subjective. Yes, someone that fails every single checkride shouldn’t be flying. Same goes for 121.. if you fail your initial, upgrade and a recurrent, flying may not be for you.

Some people attempt to upgrade too fast, and it bites them in the arse. At my airline, we see a lot of problems with soft skills versus hard skills. For example, on a LOE a crew is taxiing out and ATC advises that the visibility drops to 1/4 and it begins to rain. Crew takeoffs without getting a takeoff alternate from dispatch and does not send for wet takeoff performance data.

Is this unsafe per say? Depends but it will definitely result in a unsat. This is different than pulling up when a stall occurs, or going off the runway during a v1 cut.

I’m more forgiving with soft skill deficiencies. It doesn’t mean the candidate will pass upgrade, but allowing them to go back to the right seat for a period of time is appropriate. If the upgrade candidate lacks basic airmanship skills, then yes he or she should face more scrutiny before being let back to the line as a FO.
 
Top