ARTCC Training Times???

wve_iii

New Member
I am wondering if anyone knows what average training times are for center developementals? Such as the time to get D!, D2 etc. Also are the training times linked to the ability and hard work you put in, or will you be slowed down by lack of availablity of people to train, etc. I think I remember someone saying that the average time for enroute was like 3-5 or 2-4 years. so is it possible to get to D2 within a year after the academy? Really need to know the timeframe to D2 as that will be when my pay will equal my current so i can figure what losses ill have. Any info would be great thanks.
 

ATLTRACON

MODERATOR
I am wondering if anyone knows what average training times are for center developementals? Such as the time to get D!, D2 etc. Also are the training times linked to the ability and hard work you put in, or will you be slowed down by lack of availablity of people to train, etc. I think I remember someone saying that the average time for enroute was like 3-5 or 2-4 years. so is it possible to get to D2 within a year after the academy? Really need to know the timeframe to D2 as that will be when my pay will equal my current so i can figure what losses ill have. Any info would be great thanks.
It all depends on the amount of trainers and the amount that your facility lets you train per day. Figure to finish all of your D-sides at about two years.
 

wve_iii

New Member
D-Sides??? Does D stand for Developemental? Or something else. Please excuse my Noobness (Is that a word??) but youll have to speak very Slooooooowly! :panic:
 

hah28713

New Member
I just went to MN Center and they said they are averaging 2 years. They were about to get a few more training computers so they hoped to knock off a few months from that.

I also went to Houston Center in March and they are doing a new training process called "Functional Training" you are checked out within a year. that is if you don't washout. They are loosing many people because they can't keep up with how fast paced it is.
 

wve_iii

New Member
Wow AG to CPC in a year that would be awesome. Would definitely help my situation to get the raises that fast. Has anyone else heard anything different at other places? I did hear Miami Center was real bad. Hope that Fort Worth has some fast training times cause im willing to put in the work to see the results ASAP.
 

igids1

New Member
It all depends on the amount of trainers and the amount that your facility lets you train per day. Figure to finish all of your D-sides at about two years.





Could you elaborate on this a little bit? What else would you be doing if you are not training? Do new hires work 40 hour weeks? Less/more? Is OT even available to a new hire?
 

dpiatek

New Member
I also went to Houston Center in March and they are doing a new training process called "Functional Training" you are checked out within a year. that is if you don't washout. They are loosing many people because they can't keep up with how fast paced it is.
Wow, that sucks. Any other Centers doing this (like ZKC)? I'd hate to put all that time in just to have training rushed, increasing chance of washout...
 

hah28713

New Member
From what I was told in Houston, was that they were trying it out in a few larger centers. I think Chicago is doing it too. Other than Houston and Chicago I am unsure. My classmates aunt is the head of training in Houston and she said they are loosing people left and right. It was something they were supposed to just be trying out and are trying to get rid of but who knows??? When I went down there in March the manager I talked to simply said many people disliked it and he wasn't sure how long it would be around for. It would be awesome to make it through it. ONE year and your checked out!!! $$$$$
 

ATLTRACON

MODERATOR
D-Sides??? Does D stand for Developemental? Or something else. Please excuse my Noobness (Is that a word??) but youll have to speak very Slooooooowly! :panic:
A D-side at an ARTCC is a "helper" for the radar controller. He/she is a controller who takes hand-offs, coordinates with other sectors about aircraft that are entering/exiting your airspace, enter information into the HOST (FFAA main computer) about certain aircraft, etc. You and the radar controller are a team at that certain sector.

and

a D side was the non radar position at a sector you job was to make sure aircraft entered your sector seperated while the radar controller seperated the aircraft in the sector, D sides also helped with coordination checked that flight plans were correct etc, then the FFA brought in URET and now a D side is nothing more than someone who is in the way, URET killed the radar team and this was the main reason
 

ATLTRACON

MODERATOR
It would be awesome to make it through it. ONE year and your checked out!!! $$$$$

And do you really think you would be prepared to do the job?

Remember, for 30+ years it has taken 3-5 years to become fully checked out in a facility. What has changed in the last year that makes the FFAA thinks they check out people in only one year?

answer: THEY'RE NOT TRAINING YOU (they are doing it only because we are sooooooo short staffed and they want to report to Congress that all is well) and when something goes wrong, YOU WILL BE LEFT SPINNING IN THE WIND.
 

utahaviator

New Member
And do you really think you would be prepared to do the job?

Remember, for 30+ years it has taken 3-5 years to become fully checked out in a facility. What has changed in the last year that makes the FFAA thinks they check out people in only one year?

answer: THEY'RE NOT TRAINING YOU (they are doing it only because we are sooooooo short staffed and they want to report to Congress that all is well) and when something goes wrong, YOU WILL BE LEFT SPINNING IN THE WIND.
That's kind of what I've been thinking...one year from nothing to fully checked out is ridiculous!! I have full confidence in my abilities to learn and do well, but good grief! I don't know that I want to have them say..."Well <insert your name here>, congratulations. Here's all the responsibility. Don't worry that you haven't practiced very much, nothing too bad will come up. BTW...why do you have 2 planes, same altitude flying right at each other???" HAHA!! We'll see how this all pans out...
 

HiDef

New Member
Could you elaborate on this a little bit? What else would you be doing if you are not training? Do new hires work 40 hour weeks? Less/more? Is OT even available to a new hire?
You'll train 8 hours a day but some will be done with live traffic, some on sims, and a whole lot of reading and studying the .65, loa's, sop's etc... Everyone works a minimum 40 hours/week. OT is available if you're "useful" at the facility. I had to be checked out through at least the tower (my fac is up/down) before I was offered OT. Granted my facility is staffed adequetly right now so none of our OT has become mandatory or common place. Remember, it's not like this everywhere!

HD
 

queeno

Ward of the Guberment
the FFA is setting you nubees up to fail, it will be YOU in front of the radar not THEM when the crap hits the fan and who do you think is going down????????????????? one year to check yea right.their is a right way to learn to do this job and the wrong way, and they are choosing the wrong way.
 

1028JDN

New Member
From what I was told in Houston, was that they were trying it out in a few larger centers. I think Chicago is doing it too. Other than Houston and Chicago I am unsure. My classmates aunt is the head of training in Houston and she said they are loosing people left and right. It was something they were supposed to just be trying out and are trying to get rid of but who knows??? When I went down there in March the manager I talked to simply said many people disliked it and he wasn't sure how long it would be around for. It would be awesome to make it through it. ONE year and your checked out!!! $$$$$

Your classmate has to be telling you some false stuff, because unless your classmates Aunt is a "GUY" and I highly doubt that then she isn't the head of the training in Houston center. The gentlemen who is head of the training there is Greg Haywood who by the way is a fair and honest man and it used to be David Haddad who is now the Air Traffic Training Manager at OKC. The functional training isn't that fast paced, you still have the maximum and minimum times to complete the training. Some people might ask how I know this information, it is because I worked there for 7 years in the Tech Ops side and now I am switching over to the AT side.
 

GnW

New Member
It all depends on the amount of trainers and the amount that your facility lets you train per day. Figure to finish all of your D-sides at about two years.
no, that's just not accurate anymore.


actually on second thought, with ERAM falling on its face daily, it probably is. carry on.
 

coops2k

New Member
Let me see if I can help you all.

R-side = Radar Controller
D-side = Manual or associate or assistant controller
A-side = hands out flight progress strips, where needed. (all trainees have to check out here first, never seen a wash out on the A-side:LOL:)

Position are staffed with a radar controller first and as it gets busy, a D-side is added to the sector to help out.

In the past, a trainee would come into a center and learn their maps and LOA, etc. Do some dysim training on the D-side for a sector and then go to the floor for D-side training on all the sectors. After spending some time working as a D-side they would return to class and the dysim for radar training. After that they would return to the floor for r-side training. This program would take 3-4 years, but in my eyes made a better controller.

Now "Functional training" combines all of your training up front, so that when you come to the floor, you now have a "Function" to train on, 2 R-sides & the D-sides with them. You should still start training on the D-sides, but as you progress, we can now add in R-side training along with your D-side training. In some ways this helps, as you get to see what the help an R-side might need, but it hurts, because you don't get to see what is happening at the sectors around you. You also don't get to learn from watching others. Good & Bad, you will have to decide.

Expect to train about 4.5-5.5 hours a day, we try for 5 hours. Doesn't seem like much, wait, there will be days that you will not remember that happen at the start of that day. Then there will be about 30-45 minutes of writing up your performance sheet and talking about how the day went and what you did right or wrong.

Now, if you think you can make it in a year, good luck. The fastest I have seen a trainee make is just at 2 years and he had a lot of radar time at as a military controller. I would guess the avg is around 2.5 - 3.5 years. From what I heard, training in places like NY was taking up 7 years, but I am not sure much has changed there. That time could go up, with a back log of trainee, but that would happen under the old system too. Yes the wash out rate is high, because we are putting a bigger load on your back. The trainee I have right now, is a good trainee (ex-Navy controller) and he just pasted his 1 year in the FAA, he has 1 D-side and we are working on another D-side and also his first 2 R-sides.

I been training people since 1989 and have work with both systems, I like the old way better, but I also think "Functional Trainee" has some good ideas in it. Mr Greg Haywood is a good guy, for a while he was sup in my area and I think wants the trainees to make it, he doesn't look to wash people out. This system is being used at Houston, Chicago & New York.
 

coops2k

New Member
A D-side at an ARTCC is a "helper" for the radar controller. He/she is a controller who takes hand-offs, coordinates with other sectors about aircraft that are entering/exiting your airspace, enter information into the HOST (FFAA main computer) about certain aircraft, etc. You and the radar controller are a team at that certain sector.

and

a D side was the non radar position at a sector you job was to make sure aircraft entered your sector seperated while the radar controller seperated the aircraft in the sector, D sides also helped with coordination checked that flight plans were correct etc, then the FFA brought in URET and now a D side is nothing more than someone who is in the way, URET killed the radar team and this was the main reason

I still believe the D-side can be a help at the sector, and I think a major problem with training. Many are no longer teaching basic D-side functions. Main reason, no training guide for uret, so many instructors do not know how to use uret. For most, if there is no "red" or "yellow" warning, people don't even look at it. If you don't look at it, you will not use it and so many D-sides are just a second set of eyes for the radar.

Yes uret has taken away many functions of the D-side, but they can still do many things like traffic searches, most will not take the time to learn how to do it or use it. I also think part of the problem is uret is not as accurate as it needs to be.

If I have a D-side trainee, for the first 2 D-sides, they will use uret in the manual mode. As the R-side takes a hand off, they move that A/C into the active area and if I ask, they must know the type, route, req alt, etc. They can not use the clean up button, each flight plan must be drop as the R-side switch the A/C. When an A/C is climbing, they must do a traffic search for any conflicts. They will know which way is the best way to put a reroute in for an A/C and will do a search for changes of alt. They will know how to do a graphic reroute for weather, if needed. I make my trainee call other controllers to assign headings, speeds if need and they better be doing all the coordinations that needs to be done, if they want to check out. And when we are working the R-side, they will continue to do their D-side functions, until we get a D-side. I get s### from others about this, but as long as it's my ticket, that's the way it will be.
 

Barty

Well-Known Member
My guide through ZTL today told me it typically takes 2-3 years for most, those with prior experience from the military or from the terminal environment taking less and those with no experience (like most here) taking closer to 3 years give or take a few months. He also reiterated the same thing that has been told time and time again. If you show you're dedicated to the traning, don't get cocky or have some kind of entitlement attitude, folks in that area (himself included) will do everything they can to help you get certified. Almost all of the washouts he's seen are guys who had an attitude or thought study/learning ended whenever they stepped away from the sim or the scopes. It definitely takes some time and effort on your part!
 
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