Another 73 Down

ppragman

FLIPY FLAPS!
Callin' it like I see it, man. And I think I've been pretty patient with your distortions of what I've said here. But "c'mon" is right.
First off, if I'm following you correctly, your thesis is, "coup not justified, but Iran was bad first, so understandable but I won't comment." I feel like you're suggesting that toppling them was ok but won't out and out say it? If that's wrong, my apologies, but what is your stance on this? Can we topple whoever we want if it interferes with our economic interests?

Is your whole point here just to say, "Iran bad first, therefore us not as bad?" My coffee definitely failed me this morning, you definitely didn't explicitly say it was justified, but the way you worded all this seems to blame Iran for having their country toppled, which seems misguided historically speaking.

Also, I don't hate America... I mean, that's not even close to accurate, I tend to hate our foreign policy when we topple countries... but "hate America First?" C'mon. I have issues with our policies and I think our society is probably broken, but "hate America?" That's some Trumpian nonsense.
 

SpiraMirabilis

Possible Subversive
ehhhhh no. We put the oil embargo on Japan because of them invading China. They didn’t invade China because of the oil embargo.
Who the eff cared about China? China wasn’t our business, and at the time it was a chaotic mess of infighting anyway. With as brutal as the Imperial Japanese were in the mainland Mao ended up being ten times worse anyway.

What should have been obvious though, and in fact many Americans did realize it at the time, was that embargoing oil to Japan would lead to war. That was inevitable as the tide because it left Japan with no options that weren’t probably worse. Can you even imagine that today? Over 100,000 American service members died in the Pacific theater, actually probably half again as much.

Today we’d let every freaking Kangaroo, Man, Woman, child and Dingo in Australia (and we love the Aussies!) die before committing to a war where we projected that many casualties, and that is the appropriate and correct response. Well, maybe not if it were that bad but you get my drift.
 

Boris Badenov

Someone should definitely do *something*, Captain!
That it would lead to war was, as you point out, considered likely by many. That it would (help) lead to a global catastrophe of unparalleled dimensions was not. That's a lot of 20/20 hindsight. And the unfortunate truth is that nation states are obliged to play the Great Game and wield aggressive military influence, because if they don't, you can be pretty sure someone else will.

The global order that grew out if WW2, for all of its many flaws, has led to a period of unprecedented peace, prosperity, and progress. Human beings now leave orders of magnitude higher quality lives by almost any objective measure than at any other time in the entire history of the species. It irritates me to no end that this is often forgotten.

Certainly, criticize away, improve the system, there's always room for improvement, but when people start in on (and this isn't particularly directed at anyone, including the OP) how totally awful, corrupt, and terrible the System is and how it should be torn down, I want to beat them with bamboo rod while "Holiday in Cambodia" plays at "11".
 

chipdumper

Well-Known Member
I thought we were supposed to be independent of the Arab oil. President Trump promised that we would be out of there too. Apparently many of the Arab nations do not want us to pull out. This is quite an interesting game of poker. Sometimes a gambler takes a chance and wins. I really wonder if the US were to completely pull out would the KSA and Iran both go wild on each other. Quite the theatrics have been gong on in Yemen for the past few years. The nations between Yemen and Iraq and going insane and scared to death. The past is all but forgotten. How do we move forward?


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SpiraMirabilis

Possible Subversive
I thought we were supposed to be independent of the Arab oil. President Trump promised that we would be out of there too. Apparently many of the Arab nations do not want us to pull out. This is quite an interesting game of poker. Sometimes a gambler takes a chance and wins. I really wonder if the US were to completely pull out would the KSA and Iran both go wild on each other. Quite the theatrics have been gong on in Yemen for the past few years. The nations between Yemen and Iraq and going insane and scared to death. The past is all but forgotten. How do we move forward?


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I actually think we may be a net exporter now, marginally. But oil is so fungible (it’s basically as fungible as money. It basically is money) that supply problems somewhere mean problems everywhere.
 

Richman

Well-Known Member
I hate to use ignore except in the most egregious of circumstances. @ppragman generally isn't a dunce. He's just such a "hate America first" guy that he can't get past the fact that I've never defended our coup in Iran. He just refuses to put away that straw man.
Never quite understood this position. Certainly you can work to make political change, but even the most ardent would probably agree you’re never going to get there one one lifetime, and one lifetime being either partially or entirely miserable in your country of birth is a long time.

I’m not saying “‘Murica, love it or leave it”, but sometimes I wonder if people wouldn’t be happier long term somewhere a larger part of the populace shares their views.

The irony, of course, is not everyplace will let you in. Had one acquaintance that was hard over on leaving and wanted to emigrate to New Zealand. Turns out they have a rather strict quota with a point system that is unfavorable to someone with an Arts major.

Now he hates two countries.
 

Bob Ridpath

Pit Bull love
I thought we were supposed to be independent of the Arab oil. President Trump promised that we would be out of there too. Apparently many of the Arab nations do not want us to pull out. This is quite an interesting game of poker. Sometimes a gambler takes a chance and wins. I really wonder if the US were to completely pull out would the KSA and Iran both go wild on each other. Quite the theatrics have been gong on in Yemen for the past few years. The nations between Yemen and Iraq and going insane and scared to death. The past is all but forgotten. How do we move forward?
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[/QUO
We could certainly do better domestically by keeping the barrels of oil we export on the homeland, at least in my opinion. It may be “better” business for oil companies, but every barrel which remains here means one less imported.

How much oil does the U.S. export and import?

 

chipdumper

Well-Known Member
I’m not saying “‘Murica, love it or leave it”, but sometimes I wonder if people wouldn’t be happier long term somewhere a larger part of the populace shares their views.
I’m the child of immigrants who came from two different parts of the world. I really had no idea what the real world is like, literally, outside of the US until I actually visited these sh*thole countries. Wow. It sure changed my view and also made me upset in a way. Regardless it made me know that the United States of America is the greatest nation on earth. Our standards of living are light years beyond the crappy places of earth. In my opinion, the entire world, except the US and Canada, is Third World.
People speak about how great it is in Finland, Germany, Australia, Singapore, blah blah and it’s all BS.



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Lawman

Well-Known Member
And new video showing two missiles fired and that they were still flying it after the first one impacted...

Sad.

1. ”Anything worth shooting a missile at is worth shooting two missiles at” is pretty much a rule amongst eastern doctrine air defense training. The actually Probability of intercept would surprise people to see that missile is a good name, because they do miss more than you’d expect. That mantra is of course adopted for use against a defending target (one that can detect and attempt to protect its self) but a gunner isn’t going to differentiate.

2. Unlike you see in movies missiles don’t cause airplanes to just atomize into a giant fireball. They absorb the damage and then like the EP session in the sim from hell, the aircraft becomes a doomed ship. Imagine for instance if simultaneously you lost ever hydraulic and electrical line running along a 6 foot diameter section where your left wing meets the fuselage. Along with that problem, control cables and joints are shattered. Yes you may have something resembling an airplane, but the likelihood that you could keep it flying much less recover it somewhere is now an impossibility.
 

denverpilot

Well-Known Member
1. ”Anything worth shooting a missile at is worth shooting two missiles at”

...

2. Unlike you see in movies missiles don’t cause airplanes to just atomize into a giant fireball.

...
Was aware of all but a good review for the uninitiated.
 

SlumTodd_Millionaire

Socialist Pig Member
First off, if I'm following you correctly, your thesis is, "coup not justified, but Iran was bad first, so understandable but I won't comment."
Negative. I was presenting no thesis at all. I was merely refuting the silly idea that the coup was some sort of unilateral action on our part that wasn’t precipitated by actions first made by Iran. The coup didn’t come out of nowhere. We and Britain didn’t just up and decide that we wanted to get rid of the standing government of Iran.

I feel like you're suggesting that toppling them was ok but won't out and out say it? If that's wrong, my apologies, but what is your stance on this?
Why must I take a stance on events that occurred before my father was even born? I don’t feel compelled to do so.
 

Yetti

Well-Known Member
Oil has been shaping our foreign Middle East policy for decades.
It's not all oil. We looked the other way as the Shaw was brutal to his people. As you will recall there was a cold war and Iran is next to USSR and they provided a place to have a listening post on the USSR. So oil + evil commies + bad dicatators.
 

z987k

Well-Known Member
The irony, of course, is not everyplace will let you in. Had one acquaintance that was hard over on leaving and wanted to emigrate to New Zealand. Turns out they have a rather strict quota with a point system that is unfavorable to someone with an Arts major.
I've looked at leaving for a couple countries I really like. It's impossible if you want to also work. If you're filthy rich, and can support yourself forever on no income it's easy. I could do it but it would take 10-15 years to recover to what I currently have. Just not really worth it.
 
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