1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

And it's not even summer yet (Passenger vs Pilot)

Discussion in 'General Topics' started by Derg, Apr 20, 2017 at 07:31.

  1. wheelsup

    wheelsup Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2004
    Messages:
    12,340
    Likes Received:
    2,090
    Just a hunch but I'm guessing he handled it that way because he knew he wasn't 100% innocent either.

    Something had to happen on the plane (this guy was nonrevving home) to make this pax get riled up.

    I didn't read the linked article but initially the pilot declined to even press charges. I think maybe the local LEO decided to press their own charges. I dunno.

    I will say it would've been kinda funny if the pilot knocked the guy to the floor. This outcome is better for all involved including the company who comes out looking good especially after the United incident. It's fun to talk tough but I fully admit I would run away from any fight I can!
     
    ComplexHiAv8r and Luigi like this.
  2. MikeD

    MikeD Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2003
    Messages:
    39,344
    Likes Received:
    15,320
    And companies need to publically back up their crews in situations like this, regardless of the above.

    A company that won't do that, or would punish someone from defending themselves from imminent bodily harm or worse, isn't a company I would waste my time working for. No job is that important. I have no duty to accept physical harm directed at me, and stand there and take it.
     
    av8tr1 and ShyFlyer like this.
  3. MikeD

    MikeD Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2003
    Messages:
    39,344
    Likes Received:
    15,320
    That something could be anything; not necessarily anything the pilot did in a negative way; but can be anything the passenger perceived that he didn't like the pilot doing. None of which means that the pilot has to stand and do nothing, and accept being physically assaulted, followed, and receive injuries that could've been worse than they were, from said passenger.

    The right to self defense is an inherent right.
     
  4. Stryker172

    Stryker172 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    Messages:
    487
    Likes Received:
    572
    As much as Id like to say Id fight back if I were attacked like this I really wouldnt be able to do it. I still have a long career ahead of me and its just not worth it. In Atlanta a few years back I saw a guy almost punch a gate agent as he was screaming at him. I stood up and went over there scared to death I was gonna have to fight this guy and find myself on youtube for my employer to see. Thank God he backed off when he saw me coming. I have no problem fighting but not in uniform.
     
    Avgirl likes this.
  5. MikeD

    MikeD Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2003
    Messages:
    39,344
    Likes Received:
    15,320
    Why should the fact you are wearing a uniform, somehow preclude you from defending yourself from a physical attack, and instead just allowing yourself to get beat on and be injured severely or worse?

    Allowing yourself to be attacked and doing nothing about it, and getting a TBI or an eye injury or any number of other injuries in the process, will also kill this "long career ahead of you" that you're legitimately worried about, when you can't qualify for a medical anymore.

    There should be nothing wrong with reasonably defending oneself. I'm not talking beating the hell out of someone, but reasonably stopping the physical threat that's imminent or in progress, which shouldn't be any kind of issue.
     
  6. Avgirl

    Avgirl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2016
    Messages:
    1,957
    Likes Received:
    965
    It wouldn't have been funny, and I would imagine he was deadheading. I don't care who you are, you have serious anger management issues if you feel the need to confront someone like that. I think this pilot acted the way he should have in uniform. It would have opened up an opportunity for the pax to go after the deep pockets of the airline and possibly lost him his job. Fighting back seems like it is a good idea, but more often than not, it is exactly playing into what the other person wants. I hope this guy was added to the no fly list.
     
  7. mshunter

    mshunter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2008
    Messages:
    13,795
    Likes Received:
    4,841
    Passengers get riled up of BS all the time. I had a passenger get P.O.'ed because I ended up in first class on the way home.

    "Crew isn't supposed to be in first class" he said to me as I took my seat.

    "I know, riiiiight!"

    He hit the FA call button, and said to her "he isn't supposed to be up here!"

    She asked him if he'd like to be re-seated, in the back. He declined.
     
    Acrofox and Avgirl like this.
  8. Finny

    Finny Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Messages:
    1,715
    Likes Received:
    1,922
    I always love the "I have a complaint about a flight crew member so I'm going to go to that other flight crew member over there! They'll help me!" only to realize how much of a lost cause that really is...
     
    SrFnFly227 likes this.
  9. FlyingAccountant

    FlyingAccountant Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2006
    Messages:
    254
    Likes Received:
    155
    In a perfect world, I wholeheartedly agree and if he was out of uniform, I would 100% agree. But you know how quickly things can get spun and taken out of context when there's a camera phone around.
     
  10. MikeD

    MikeD Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2003
    Messages:
    39,344
    Likes Received:
    15,320
    And none of that will matter when one loses their medical forever because they allowd themselves to get beat on and did nothing about it due to "perception". Thats the epitome of idiocy. NO job is worth that. Its not just an inherent right to self defense, it could very well be your life at stake, if not some form of permanent physical damage. The job wont matter, if you are unable to perform it anymore.

    Do what is necessary to stop an immediate threat.
     
    av8tr1 likes this.
  11. MikeD

    MikeD Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2003
    Messages:
    39,344
    Likes Received:
    15,320
    For reasons above.

    Letting yourself get physically assaulted is never a good idea for a whole host of reasons. Nor is it part of your job description.
     
    av8tr1 likes this.
  12. BEEF SUPREME

    BEEF SUPREME Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2009
    Messages:
    3,487
    Likes Received:
    2,933
    OK so real question:

    Lets say I'm just being my usual old Beef Supreme self at the terminal and minding my own when an irate PAX gets a bit in my face and crosses into the getting physical zone. This has already happened without the physical stuff twice. Two different sets of irate PAX have cornered me with questions about why they got stuck at SFO during bad WX and it rapidly turned into "WHY ARE ALL AIRLINE EMPLOYEES LIARS???!!!!" Even though I put on my corporate pilot persona and was very much "yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir." I managed to escape and deescalate both times but lawd, that was a pretty intense customer service situation for a new guy on the first few days of IOE.

    How does one get that PAX detained, or in trouble or even get help in this situation of irate PAX going full airline rage and getting physical???

    I ask because after my week or two of being a "real airline pilot" I have a sinking suspicion if a PAX assaulted me at the airport the cell phone cameras would come out a bunch of people would stand around and watch/film and the "airport security" wouldn't do anything.

    As we all know, fighting back would only make XYZ airline look "hella bad" and likely result in me getting fired/going to jail.
     
  13. MikeD

    MikeD Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2003
    Messages:
    39,344
    Likes Received:
    15,320
    Unless someone calls LE, or LE happens to be around......whether uniformed or whether armed plainclothes pax waiting around, you will likely have to physically defend yourself and control the situation upurself. You are correct to assume that yo will likely not have assistance immediately available or willing.

    It absolutely floors me how many people here are more worried about their "brand" and how something may look, and not worried about the very real possibility of getting seriously injured, injured to where they cannot work as a pilot anymore, or even potentially killed, that they will just stand there and take a freaking beating and do ZERO to defend themselves and at least terminate the physical threat until authorities can arrive.

    Someone who is intent on physically assaulting you, you HAVE to assume also has intent on killing you. So you'd better damn well do something about it before you end up there.

    None of the worries matter when you end up disfigured or dead. Think about that and let that sink in.
     
    Rocketman99 likes this.
  14. av8tr1

    av8tr1 "Never tell me the odds!"

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2014
    Messages:
    1,840
    Likes Received:
    1,400
    It also creates the impression that passengers can do this as a matter or practice without reprocussions. Same reason we don't negotiate with terrorists. If one gets away with it then others will pile on.

    Stop this chit the first time and others will think twice before trying it.
     
  15. BEEF SUPREME

    BEEF SUPREME Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2009
    Messages:
    3,487
    Likes Received:
    2,933
    I guess with your training you perceive these things far differently than I do. So far I've never been hurt in a physical altercation because I've managed to avoid them.

    I'm simply asking how I can get airport police involved. If things get uncomfortable.
     
  16. MikeD

    MikeD Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2003
    Messages:
    39,344
    Likes Received:
    15,320
    Agreed.

    And I'm not saying to unreasonably beat the pulp out of someone. Am only saying to physically do what's necessary to stop the assaultive threat to yourself. You HAVE to assume the worst: that someone willing to assault you physically, is also willing to kill you, or has no concerns about doing so. This is your life at stake here, or very serious bodily harm. Who the hell cares about perceptions and brand over their freaking life? Un-freaking-believable.
     
    av8tr1 likes this.
  17. mshunter

    mshunter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2008
    Messages:
    13,795
    Likes Received:
    4,841
    It wouldn't be for defending one's self. Management would find another path for it.
     
  18. Richman

    Richman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2003
    Messages:
    1,765
    Likes Received:
    3,121
    I was JSing home one day in civvies (which for me is shirt and tie...personal preference).

    I lope down to the gate and get my pass and everything is good. Flight is WAY oversold.

    I happen to have my ID showing, which I normally don't do when it's not necessary, but for some reason I got busy and forgot. Anyway, there are a TON of people waiting around on standby rolled over for some previous flights. I'm at the back of the pack chillin' and some guy starts blovating about how I'm last and I'll never get on, and he's been waiting around all day and blah blah blah. Turns out he was on a buddy pass. He got visibly agitated when got on the airplane.

    Moral of that story...don't give out buddy passes.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017 at 09:59
    Derg, JetDoc and Cptnchia like this.
  19. ShyFlyer

    ShyFlyer CAP Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2009
    Messages:
    558
    Likes Received:
    300
    Listen, I wholeheartedly agree with you. However, just about any company will gladly dump an employee that stirs up controversy, even if that employee's actions were 100% correct. Given how passenger/airline relations are at the moment, I can't blame the pilot for trying to extract himself from the confrontation. Would I have done the same thing? Probably not. With my personal background, I'm more likely to revert to some of the self-defense training and mindset that I received working for a certain law enforcement agency. I would also expect my employer to terminate my employment for the "embarrassment" I caused them once the social media warriors launched their campaign. I would also expect to "cash in" on my investment in union membership as well.
     
  20. MikeD

    MikeD Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2003
    Messages:
    39,344
    Likes Received:
    15,320
    Like I said before, until someone calls LE to the scene, or they happen to be there or nearby, then until that time, you're on your own.

    You may have managed to avoid physical altercations in your time; but understand that when the person begins physically assaulting you, your ability to now avoid the physical confrontation....that ship has sailed. You are now in a chit sandwich of a situation NOT of your own making and NOT one you wanted or asked for, but that's no longer under your control: the person assaulting you has dragged you down that road. You, me, or anyone could find ourselves in that situation in an instant. And you now have to play the cards you've been dealt by someone else. Your life could very well depend on how effectively you do that.

    Unless someone has ever been in a fight for their life, then it will come as a real shock and surprise they aren't willing to accept, the first time they are. Because it's not fun. It's real. It sucks. It's scary, it's more fear than one can reasonably know....it's none of this Hollywood bravado BS. But you have to face it head on, and you have to control the situation in terms of terminating the threat, you cannot let it ultimately control you. If you lose, you can very likely lose forever.

    To illustrate, trying to cuff a guy up once in the field, and a struggle ensued. Immediately, at close quarters like that, I'm instantly down to 50% fighting ability, while the suspect has 100%. Why? Because my dominant hand/arm has to immediately go towards protecting my pistol in its holster and ensure it stays there to prevent it from being introduced into the fight, leaving the non-dominant hand to fight with. The suspect doesn't have to worry about that, he's full up. Until I can disengage him from body-body contact, I'm restricted. Once I was able to get him disengaged, create a bit of workable distance to where weapon retention is no longer an immediate concern, and now be able to go 100% and take him back down; was the only time I could then take a second to reflect on what just occurred and how I could've been dead right there just from a possible hit to the head in the right place or choked out or any number of things, never mind the gun. And that was a scary thought that really struck home. Granted that's a pretty extreme example, but I use that example to illustrate that someone willing to go to the point of attacking you, is willing to go to the point of seriously injuring or killing you. And you NEED to prepare yourself for that and act accordingly when that a-hole proverbially drags you into a fight you didn't ask for and were not able to avoid by any reasonable means.

    Company brand and how the situation will be perceived, will rapidly disappear from your concerns, once you begin getting physically beaten upon. Or it least it damn well should, as it shouldn't have been a concern to begin with.

    In a fight for your life, whether you asked for it or not is immaterial; you had better be fighting to win. There is no second place.
     
    av8tr1 likes this.

Share This Page