Advice for first 121 job?

pljenkins

Resident Knucklehead
#21
No. You dont want to play around with emergency and low fuel declarations. That can get you into a bad situation with the Feds and company that you dont want especially since its bingo fuel and you have an alternate and plenty of airports in Florida/Georgia to land at. Its pretty simple if FLL is taking arrivals you tell the pilot to divert to PBI and before landing at PBI see if FLL will take them in. Sometimes getting out of one constrained ATC facility and into another less constrained one can be a big difference in getting in.
WINNER! In this case diverting to your alternate starts you back in the direction of the destination. Since you're easily 45 minutes from your destination, you have plenty of time to work on the next controller down the line to work you into FLL.
 

A1TAPE

Well-Known Member
#22
But then why do the feds not take too kindly to the plan the destination as an alternate then swap it mid route? Would that have worked for the FLL PBI problem?
 

SKYROCK

F RAN CO FILE B RAN IFF HI RAM AB IFF
#23
Don't join the union, especially if its affiliated with the AFLCIO. Oh! that's right, you don't have a choice in representation.
 
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who'swho

Don't hesitate. Penetrate!
#24
Don't join the union, especially if its affiliated with the AFLCIO. Oh! that's right, you don't have a choice in representation.
Cuz the non-union jobs get the most $$ and best work rules, right??? Unions are only as good as the member participation.
 

SKYROCK

F RAN CO FILE B RAN IFF HI RAM AB IFF
#25
I'm not saying nonunion by any stretch.

Oh, and not Teamsters either. All either of these is good for is protecting jobs for democrats and people who should have lost them if you are willing to be owned by them, and so forth...stuff like having sexual relations inflight instead of landing in MSP. Want me to start tweeting about that? I could alert the authorities.
 

pljenkins

Resident Knucklehead
#26
But then why do the feds not take too kindly to the plan the destination as an alternate then swap it mid route? Would that have worked for the FLL PBI problem?
Well, it would have worked, and technically it's legal, but it's considered an abuse and can get you in hot water. Consider that if you divert to an alternate it's generally assumed you're in a fuel state that would make any further deviations a fuel critical situation. This gives a diversion defacto priority. In short, you've forced ATC's hand and cut to the head of the line. You've also further delayed other aircraft getting into that airport because now they have to sequence you in.
 
#27
I'm not saying nonunion by any stretch.

Oh, and not Teamsters either. All either of these is good for is protecting jobs for democrats and people who should have lost them if you are willing to be owned by them, and so forth...stuff like having sexual relations inflight instead of landing in MSP. Want me to start tweeting about that? I could alert the authorities.
What are you trying to say? Please start tweeting about it and please alert the authorities about whatever it is you're talking about so that we don't have to read questionable posts like yours. Who are you threatening? A dispatcher? A pilot? A democrat? A union member?
 

A1TAPE

Well-Known Member
#28
8. When should a “minimum fuel” declaration be made? Minimum fuel should be declared anytime that an aircraft, if it were to be delayed, might end up in a low fuel emergency situation. Most air carriers have a specific value at which this should be declared.
9. When should a low fuel emergency be declared? A low fuel emergency should be declared anytime an aircraft falls below minimum fuel values and is in imminent danger of running out of fuel. Most air carriers have a specific value at which this should be declared.

Ison, David C.. Aircraft Dispatcher Oral Exam Guide (Kindle): Prepare for the FAA Oral and Practical Exam to Earn Your Aircraft Dispatcher Certificate (Oral Exam Guide Series) (Kindle Locations 6181-6187). Aviation Supplies and Academics, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

from the AIM
5-5-15. MINIMUM FUEL ADVISORY

  • a. Pilot:

  • 1. Advise ATC of your minimum fuel status when your fuel supply has reached a state where, upon reaching destination, you cannot accept any undue delay.

  • 2. Be aware this is not an emergency situation, but merely an advisory that indicates an emergency situation is possible should any undue delay occur.

  • 3. On initial contact the term "minimum fuel" should be used after stating call sign.
EXAMPLE-
Salt Lake Approach, United 621, "minimum fuel."


  • 4. Be aware a minimum fuel advisory does not imply a need for traffic priority.

  • 5. If the remaining usable fuel supply suggests the need for traffic priority to ensure a safe landing, you should declare an emergency due to low fuel and report fuel remaining in minutes.
REFERENCE-
PILOT/CONTROLLER GLOSSARY ITEM- FUEL REMAINING.


  • b. Controller:

  • 1. When an aircraft declares a state of minimum fuel, relay this information to the facility to whom control jurisdiction is transferred.

  • 2. Be alert for any occurrence which might delay the aircraft.

so then declare minimum fuel then and if ATC still doesn't understand declare an emergency?

Look at this American airlines flight and how assertiveness makes for a safe outcome.

On the contract look at this DFW American airlines flight where they were denied the runway they wanted even though they declared.


In that case using his emergency authority, that captain should have said to the controller to shove it and start clearing metal out of his way. Guaranteed a carpet dance must have occurred after the fight between AA and ATC. The flight landed safely but it would be interesting to see the feds reaction had the pilot said screw it to ATC and used 17 despite it being on the tapes atc denying him that runway. Feds most likely would have told him good on you for using your emergency authority and to ATC he had every right to disobey your orders. Denying an emergency flight their choice of runway..wow..just wow.
 

Flagship_dxer

Legacy Airline Dispatcher
#29
In that case using his emergency authority, that captain should have said to the controller to shove it and start clearing metal out of his way. Guaranteed a carpet dance must have occurred after the fight between AA and ATC. The flight landed safely but it would be interesting to see the feds reaction had the pilot said screw it to ATC and used 17 despite it being on the tapes atc denying him that runway. Feds most likely would have told him good on you for using your emergency authority and to ATC he had every right to disobey your orders. Denying an emergency flight their choice of runway..wow..just wow.
ATC chooses the runway configuration. If the pilot does not like it, he can divert especially in NY airspace you have EWR/LGA/ISP all within a close proximity you can divert to. The question is though how much fuel did he actually have? If he was truly low on fuel than the emergency declaration would be warranted and he would likely only need to justify his actions. If he was not low on fuel and simply did not want the inconvenience of holding or landing with a legal tailwind then he would be a lot of hot water. Abusing emergency declarations does not go down well. You declare an emergency when you absolutely need to not because you didnt get your way with ATC. An emergency is a last resort when all other normal and legal options have been exhausted.
 

U_of_I_Tweak

Well-Known Member
#30
8. When should a “minimum fuel” declaration be made? Minimum fuel should be declared anytime that an aircraft, if it were to be delayed, might end up in a low fuel emergency situation. Most air carriers have a specific value at which this should be declared.
9. When should a low fuel emergency be declared? A low fuel emergency should be declared anytime an aircraft falls below minimum fuel values and is in imminent danger of running out of fuel. Most air carriers have a specific value at which this should be declared.

Ison, David C.. Aircraft Dispatcher Oral Exam Guide (Kindle): Prepare for the FAA Oral and Practical Exam to Earn Your Aircraft Dispatcher Certificate (Oral Exam Guide Series) (Kindle Locations 6181-6187). Aviation Supplies and Academics, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

from the AIM
5-5-15. MINIMUM FUEL ADVISORY

  • a. Pilot:

  • 1. Advise ATC of your minimum fuel status when your fuel supply has reached a state where, upon reaching destination, you cannot accept any undue delay.

  • 2. Be aware this is not an emergency situation, but merely an advisory that indicates an emergency situation is possible should any undue delay occur.

  • 3. On initial contact the term "minimum fuel" should be used after stating call sign.
EXAMPLE-
Salt Lake Approach, United 621, "minimum fuel."


  • 4. Be aware a minimum fuel advisory does not imply a need for traffic priority.

  • 5. If the remaining usable fuel supply suggests the need for traffic priority to ensure a safe landing, you should declare an emergency due to low fuel and report fuel remaining in minutes.
REFERENCE-
PILOT/CONTROLLER GLOSSARY ITEM- FUEL REMAINING.


  • b. Controller:

  • 1. When an aircraft declares a state of minimum fuel, relay this information to the facility to whom control jurisdiction is transferred.

  • 2. Be alert for any occurrence which might delay the aircraft.

so then declare minimum fuel then and if ATC still doesn't understand declare an emergency?

Look at this American airlines flight and how assertiveness makes for a safe outcome.

On the contract look at this DFW American airlines flight where they were denied the runway they wanted even though they declared.


In that case using his emergency authority, that captain should have said to the controller to shove it and start clearing metal out of his way. Guaranteed a carpet dance must have occurred after the fight between AA and ATC. The flight landed safely but it would be interesting to see the feds reaction had the pilot said screw it to ATC and used 17 despite it being on the tapes atc denying him that runway. Feds most likely would have told him good on you for using your emergency authority and to ATC he had every right to disobey your orders. Denying an emergency flight their choice of runway..wow..just wow.
I heard a funny exchange on Denver Center while I was passing through a few years ago.

UAL 1234: Denver Center, United 1234 Two-four-oh, minimum fuel.

Center: United 1234, Roger. Expect delay vectors for traffic.

UAL: Understand you're going to vector us from minimum fuel to a fuel emergency?

Center: Uh...expect direct XXXXX shortly.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 

Luigi

Well-Known Member
#31
I'm not saying nonunion by any stretch.

Oh, and not Teamsters either. All either of these is good for is protecting jobs for democrats and people who should have lost them if you are willing to be owned by them, and so forth...stuff like having sexual relations inflight instead of landing in MSP. Want me to start tweeting about that? I could alert the authorities.
Hey @Derg you're at Delta, can you confirm?
 

A Life Aloft

Live Free or Die
#32
Hey @Derg you're at Delta, can you confirm?
Why would you even give any consideration to someone who chose to screw up their entire career and when given the opportunity to amend that, screwed that up also. It's all about the choices that we make in life. And when you make the choices he did, you become a very bitter, angry person, who never picked up the pieces of his life, never moved on, has accomplished nothing except to have a 24/7 pity party, and instead has spend that life pointing fingers and blaming everyone and everything else for his own shortcomings and failures. He's the last person on the planet to take any advice from. Even then, listen to your dog before you listen to him.
 

Luigi

Well-Known Member
#33
Why would you even give any consideration to someone who chose to screw up their entire career and when given the opportunity to amend that, screwed that up also. It's all about the choices that we make in life. And when you make the choices he did, you become a very bitter, angry person, who never picked up the pieces of his life, never moved on, has accomplished nothing except to have a 24/7 pity party, and instead has spend that life pointing fingers and blaming everyone and everything else for his own shortcomings and failures. He's the last person on the planet to take any advice from. Even then, listen to your dog before you listen to him.
Would you feel better if I added a sarcasm tag to my last post? I didn't think it was needed, but...
 

A Life Aloft

Live Free or Die
#34
Would you feel better if I added a sarcasm tag to my last post? I didn't think it was needed, but...
It's not about how I "feel". I honestly had no idea if you were serious or not. I had no way to know. I also didn't want anyone else to be misled by him. Just trying to help and clear things up/put his posts in perspective for others. Next time, I won't bother.
 

A-9er

Well-Known Member
#35
Also, Captains are not infallible. They do make mistakes. They are counting on you to catch their mistakes, even if they won't admit it. Don't just go along with what they say just because the Captain said it.
I just finished OJT (comp check next week!), and boy, is that TRUE! I haven't seen a lot yet, and I still have a lot to learn; that said, I've seen that a lot of captains are IDIOTS. Talk about an eye opener! I thought that, with their ATP and copious experience, that they'd know how to read and interpret a METAR or NOTAM. QFT, FS...
 

who'swho

Don't hesitate. Penetrate!
#36
I just finished OJT (comp check next week!), and boy, is that TRUE! I haven't seen a lot yet, and I still have a lot to learn; that said, I've seen that a lot of captains are IDIOTS. Talk about an eye opener! I thought that, with their ATP and copious experience, that they'd know how to read and interpret a METAR or NOTAM. QFT, FS...
I've had CAs tell me while on my FDO that they don't read NOTAMs and are relying on dispatch to do that. I could see how they would struggle to read NOTAMs if they aren't reading them all the time.
 

av8or757

Well-Known Member
#37
I've had CAs tell me while on my FDO that they don't read NOTAMs and are relying on dispatch to do that. I could see how they would struggle to read NOTAMs if they aren't reading them all the time.
Couple of weeks ago I had a CA call and say..."You planned us on a closed runway." I like to use that feature in Fusion where you type in a keyword and it highlights that word or phrase in the NOTAMS. I used CLSD or Closed that way anything closed will be highlighted and jump out at me. I was confident the runway at the destination was open...but I went back to check. Perhaps something was issued after I planned the release.

Well the alternate had a runway with the same heading as the destination, but other long runways were open and available. I said Captain you're reading the wrong NOTAM. That's your alternate NOTAM.. ...pause...I heard him tell the FO.....Ooooh. We were both reading it wrong. So we cleared it up and he was good to go.
 

948Heavy

Active Member
#38
Always, be alert and don't ever let your guard down. Ask a lot of questions and don't be afraid to take initiative on making a decision. Proper time management and planning ahead will always help you from getting into difficult, out of hand, explosive, panic situations. No one is perfect and you WILL be called into your manager's office, guaranteed!!! Learn from your mistakes and move on. If you are lazy and have a let it be, whatever and reactive personality type, then this career isn't for you.
 

A-9er

Well-Known Member
#39
Couple of weeks ago I had a CA call and say..."You planned us on a closed runway." I like to use that feature in Fusion where you type in a keyword and it highlights that word or phrase in the NOTAMS. I used CLSD or Closed that way anything closed will be highlighted and jump out at me. I was confident the runway at the destination was open...but I went back to check. Perhaps something was issued after I planned the release.

Well the alternate had a runway with the same heading as the destination, but other long runways were open and available. I said Captain you're reading the wrong NOTAM. That's your alternate NOTAM.. ...pause...I heard him tell the FO.....Ooooh. We were both reading it wrong. So we cleared it up and he was good to go.
That's GOOD to know about Fusion! I'll have to try that out when I get on the desk soon. I wish I knew about it sooner, so I could have played with this feature during OJT; then, I could have gotten experience with this and known how to use it BEFORE going on the desk...
 

A1TAPE

Well-Known Member
#40
So with Fusion it will highlight it on your NOTAM list only or will it highlight the word on the release printout too? Its a "grey" and white printout so I doubt you can highlight things in the NOTAMS section of the flight release unless you told the printer to highlight every CLSD with a grey background and white lettering.
 
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