Advice for a n00b jet pilot

Roger Roger

Paid to sleep, fly for fun
Let’s see your best advice for someone moving over to right seat of a jet. Previous experience with flight-level-capable turboprops and all manner of pistons. New to multi-crew ops. Lacking the support network of a 121 training program.
 

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
Let’s see your best advice for someone moving over to right seat of a jet. Previous experience with flight-level-capable turboprops and all manner of pistons. New to multi-crew ops. Lacking the support network of a 121 training program.
I think you said you are in a old lear? So these may not really apply. In general though...

It's all going to happen way faster than you are expecting it to.

You may not be able to both slow down and go down at the same time.

There is a lag between putting moving the thrust levers (sorry... airbus thing) and getting a result.

Edit: didn't see the multi crew ops....

It takes two people to make the plane move.

Take some crm courses (lots of free stuff out there).
 

Murdoughnut

Well sized member
I think you said you are in a old lear? So these may not really apply. In general though...

It's all going to happen way faster than you are expecting it to.

You may not be able to both slow down and go down at the same time.

There is a lag between putting moving the thrust levers (sorry... airbus thing) and getting a result.
.
That's what she said.
 

Roger Roger

Paid to sleep, fly for fun
Edit: didn't see the multi crew ops....

It takes two people to make the plane move.

Take some crm courses (lots of free stuff out there).
This is honestly one of my biggest concerns. The airplane is an airplane, it kinda flies like a really fast Navajo without finicky turbocharged engines to worry about. But I’ve been flying with my favorite captain for a few thousand hours of commercial ops and “the company” introduction to two pilot CRM was basically “uh if you want to be PF on a particular leg just ask, the checklist lives up here on the glare shield, let’s go fly”.
High altitude aerodynamics and weather too, tbh flying a Pilatus in the 20s isn’t a lot different in that respect that a Navajo at 10, but a Lear trying to get into the 40s every leg because you’ve got 2.8 max before you hit reserves and a 2.1 hour leg? Little different.
 

Acrofox

All dragon~
Let’s see your best advice for someone moving over to right seat of a jet. Previous experience with flight-level-capable turboprops and all manner of pistons. New to multi-crew ops. Lacking the support network of a 121 training program.
Gosh, this is a tough one.

No matter what: Stay engaged; don't ever be along for the ride. There's a reason there are two of us.

Captains are often wrong, but sometimes they're wrong for the right reasons. (Vague enough?)

As a general rule, crew environments should be single-veto. (Takes two to say "go," only one to say "no.") And generally, the most conservative decision in the interest of safety should prevail. That is, PM> "Unstabilized, go around." PF> "Go around, flaps 2" and debrief afterwards on the ground, not PM> "Unstabilized, go around." PF> "Nah, I've got it."

The most important one is this: Maintain and update a shared mental model. During most operations, it's a team effort between two pilots and an airplane (automation), and the "team goal" is effectively "one competent pilot." And at times, an exceptional pilot is necessary or helpful, and that typically requires all three to be functioning competently.
But even that "one competent pilot" standard can be broken if your partner... or airplane ... is not kept in the loop. Err on the side of overcommunicating changes to flight path, flight plan, energy state, automation modes, plans, threats, etc.

That said, in a 121, you have the support network of policy, pro standards, foqa, a management team that will (theoretically) back decisions made in the interest of safety, etc.

In other operations, from what I hear from pilots there, it can vary from 121 full compliance style to "Sit there, shut up, say clear right, swing the gear."

Just remember that violations often come in pairs.

-Fox
 

Boris Badenov

Someone should definitely do *something*, Captain!
I had a similar experience. I think I had roughly 5000 hours when I got in to my first jet. I'd been flying the Mitsi (bow when you see that name) for a while, so the speeds and slipperyness weren't as shocking as they would be coming from the Pilatapus. Plus, by reputation, the Beatchjet isn't as finicky as a Lear, esp. w/r/t coffin-corner, etc. That said, I suspect the lessons largely transfer.

My experience was that the airplane stuff is learned pretty quickly. 3:1 descent profile is gold in almost all situations. Add ~2 miles for every 10 knots you need to lose (eg. you're at 350 doing 270 indicated, "descend to cross XYZ at 11,000 and 250 knots" = 35000-11000 = 24/3 = 8 so 80 miles + 4 miles to lose 20 knots. So 84 miles. Roughly. It'll depend on the aircraft. In a Hawker, 82 would probably be fine. In a Falcon, I might use 86.

The crew stuff is harder (or was for me). You have to learn to accept that someone else is an integral part of the system, and you can't be watching everything they do, particularly as an F/O. A certain amount of "trust but verify", etc.

That said, you're obviously not an idiot, and lots of people have done this before and not killed themselves (or anyone else) including me and bunch of 250 hour Riddle Rats. Welcome to the Jet Set, dude! Prepare to be bored out of your mind.
 

Roger Roger

Paid to sleep, fly for fun
I had a similar experience. I think I had roughly 5000 hours when I got in to my first jet. I'd been flying the Mitsi (bow when you see that name) for a while, so the speeds and slipperyness weren't as shocking as they would be coming from the Pilatapus. Plus, by reputation, the Beatchjet isn't as finicky as a Lear, esp. w/r/t coffin-corner, etc. That said, I suspect the lessons largely transfer.

My experience was that the airplane stuff is learned pretty quickly. 3:1 descent profile is gold in almost all situations. Add ~2 miles for every 10 knots you need to lose (eg. you're at 350 doing 270 indicated, "descend to cross XYZ at 11,000 and 250 knots" = 35000-11000 = 24/3 = 8 so 80 miles + 4 miles to lose 20 knots. So 84 miles. Roughly. It'll depend on the aircraft. In a Hawker, 82 would probably be fine. In a Falcon, I might use 86.

The crew stuff is harder (or was for me). You have to learn to accept that someone else is an integral part of the system, and you can't be watching everything they do, particularly as an F/O. A certain amount of "trust but verify", etc.

That said, you're obviously not an idiot, and lots of people have done this before and not killed themselves (or anyone else) including me and bunch of 250 hour Riddle Rats. Welcome to the Jet Set, dude! Prepare to be bored out of your mind.
I was hoping you’d chime in, I seemed to remember you’d taken a roughly similar career arc. Thanks!
 

Roger Roger

Paid to sleep, fly for fun
Gosh, this is a tough one.

No matter what: Stay engaged; don't ever be along for the ride. There's a reason there are two of us.

Captains are often wrong, but sometimes they're wrong for the right reasons. (Vague enough?)

As a general rule, crew environments should be single-veto. (Takes two to say "go," only one to say "no.") And generally, the most conservative decision in the interest of safety should prevail. That is, PM> "Unstabilized, go around." PF> "Go around, flaps 2" and debrief afterwards on the ground, not PM> "Unstabilized, go around." PF> "Nah, I've got it."

The most important one is this: Maintain and update a shared mental model. During most operations, it's a team effort between two pilots and an airplane (automation), and the "team goal" is effectively "one competent pilot." And at times, an exceptional pilot is necessary or helpful, and that typically requires all three to be functioning competently.
But even that "one competent pilot" standard can be broken if your partner... or airplane ... is not kept in the loop. Err on the side of overcommunicating changes to flight path, flight plan, energy state, automation modes, plans, threats, etc.

That said, in a 121, you have the support network of policy, pro standards, foqa, a management team that will (theoretically) back decisions made in the interest of safety, etc.

In other operations, from what I hear from pilots there, it can vary from 121 full compliance style to "Sit there, shut up, say clear right, swing the gear."

Just remember that violations often come in pairs.

-Fox
Thank you for this. I definitely have no intention of being a window licking FO who says “that sounds like captain shiz” about everything outside of PF/PM duties although it can be difficult to do during the moments when I still feel I’m hanging onto the static wicks.
 

JeppUpdater

Well-Known Member
When you think you’re high/fast/behind the airplane, vocalize it. The guy in the left seat may give you the nod of confidence that you’re fine, or at least won’t be surprised at the last minute.

The boards are there - if you need them, use them. In time you’ll rarely touch them.

Remember performance numbers are the average of a test pilot’s best performance. Know your own limitations, don’t be afraid to call a go around if you don’t feel right.

I can’t speak to your operation but in corporate land everyone is equals. Doesn’t matter who’s in the right seat - if I’m in the left I tell the very low time guys the same as the high time guys - you say stop, I’m stopping; you say go around, I’m going. We’ll get safe then we’ll talk about it.
 
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Crockrocket94

Well-Known Member
Energy management will become more and more critical the larger and slicker the jets get. I started my turbine career in Citations (2/7/5 etc) and those planes usually bled off speed quickly once the throttles were at idle. Getting into the larger a slicker stuff, you will realize that the plane will go down, or slow down. Usually not both at the same time. So you'll get a feeling when you need to start slowing to configure. Have a good idea of the 3/1 rule as Colt Meatman said. jets do pretty well on that slope. Generally in my head I like to be 250 to 10 miles in a straight wing jet and then start slowing or be at 210 at 10MI in a bigger sleeker jet(737). You'll figure it out after a few trips and never be afraid to ask questions to the guy in the other seat. I still ask my Captains stuff because they have more time in the plane than I do.
 

jynxyjoe

The Kickin' Chicken!
Thank you for this. I definitely have no intention of being a window licking FO who says “that sounds like captain shiz” about everything outside of PF/PM duties although it can be difficult to do during the moments when I still feel I’m hanging onto the static wicks.
I don't think you'll have trouble with the captain, or good FO stuff. I went from Saab captain to jet FO and had no problem with the transition. FO job is an easy and fun job. As for getting into a jet, boy you picked a fast on in the lear.

I kind of think of everything as a matter of saddle time.

First 100 hours: Energy management: Get figured out when the airplane flies like an airplane again, instead of a dart. In the RJ you just had to get the flaps to 20, max 220 knots, and it flew like a prop again. Every topic has 3 different ways of being taught, if you can get 3 or 4 different captains perspective on energy management, for instance, you'll find your awareness get better quicker. In any jet, when you're first learning, make sure the jet has about half it's flaps down and the gear down before you go downhill on the OM or GS intercept. A 737 only gets you flaps 10 before the gear have to come down (except in one situation) and flaps 10 won't get you slowed down on the GS going downhill at power idle. If you've got a tailwind it's already over, get the gear down. An RJ can go flaps 20 without gear, and slows down the plane great, kind of like props forward.

Your brain is going to have to work a little faster sometimes, it's no big deal.

100.1-500 hours: Energy management. From now on take a look at that outer marker and count miles back you need at clean level and idle power to configure. I remember the hawker being wayyyy too easy to configure, but its the "Hawkasaurus that can't get out of it's own way for a reason". The -200's gears would go down at 250, so 3 miles from the marker, level, boards out, idle power, you could configure and be stable at 1000ft above field elevation or more. The -900 was more like 5-5.5 because the gear was 220 or something stupid, if you waited until 5 miles and had no headwind it was eyebrow raising to get that thing stable at 1000ft. A mile here and a mile there make a difference. I know this sounds like jerkoff knowledge but here's where it's actually handy.

You're coming from the south, landing 36, and descending with a tailwind, slowed to 250 at 10,000 and 9500 you see your descent point on the moving map is 10nm from the OM (assuming same altitude), at 9500 ft you just found out even with the tailwind you're in great shape. Descent was delayed a little and now you've got 1 mile to be level at OM. Well the tailwind should subside as you get lower, and as you get lower, especially through 5-8 you should be getting that denser air and higher drag, and the true airspeed will still decrease a little... this might be ok.

Lastly, you're in the descent below 10, 250 knots, and the stupid level off line is behind the OM. Crack the spoilers. If the spoilers fully deployed won't get that dot or banana bar behind the OM by a few miles, level off a little to your gear speed minus 10 knots and drop whatever flaps will come, bring the nose down, if the descent angle doesn't look a lot steeper immediately, drop those gear. If the captain doesn't want gear tell him you need 30 right for 5 miles then back direct.
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As for CRM, there's nothing easier. Spend one day (and brief the captain your going to do this) going extra slow on your duties when he is PF, watch for the captain to look over at you and make sure you're doing something to fix whatever you're suppose to. Watch how he doesn't reach over and just do it himself? That's CRM. Watch how he patiently awaits you to learn and you can see in his eyes, "Jesus this better not be all four days", but he doesn't say anything and you just see his shoulders get tight. As long as you're not about to crash, always let the other guy get caught up and move together as a team.

Non crew GA commercial pilots have ninja hands, don't talk during a emergency, and it's common (not c'mon @Stone Cold @SteveC ) to watch helplessly as he runs the whole checklist without any call outs and just look at you bored and say "K that's done". When CRM feels like a waltz you're doing it right. CRM is never, "I'm doing this thing over here fast as I • can because I'd rather be flying every leg or I'm bored."

CRM concepts are pretty easy, but I make it even wordier for new guys because I'm a terrible teacher. If you're the NFP you have the most important job. You're the guy tasked with keeping the big picture but if you're an FO this ain't your ship. PF has some amount of brainpower sucked into flying the jet, so your job is to politely and slowly bring up options like, "The temp is -5, you want engine ice?" or "Right engine is on fire, does a Engine Fire Non-normal sound good?" or "Hey, we can hold once more and we need to be heading someplace else, you want me to work on that?"
 

adk

Steals Hotel Toilet Paper
If you're the NFP you have the most important job. You're the guy tasked with keeping the big picture but if you're an FO this ain't your ship. PF has some amount of brainpower sucked into flying the jet, so your job is to politely and slowly bring up options like, "The temp is -5, you want engine ice?" or "Right engine is on fire, does a Engine Fire Non-normal sound good?" or "Hey, we can hold once more and we need to be heading someplace else, you want me to work on that?"
This. The most common CRM related debrief item is "why the hell didn't you tell him to go around?"
 

EIR

Beer Drinker
I have a bunch of stuff for the Lear if you want me to send them your way.

Power settings down low: 60% n1 200kts, 70% n1 250kts, 80% n1 300kts.
Vref easy calculation: take your BOW, add 5kts per 1000lbs of fuel, and 1kt per pax. IE: BOW 10200, 2000lbs fuel, 5 pax. 102+10+5=vref 117.
 

JordanD

Honorary Member
It's all going to happen way faster than you are expecting it to.

You may not be able to both slow down and go down at the same time.
I'm in the process of still figuring out the Airbus from the E170 so I consider myself in the camp of "I once again suck and feel like I'm in a jet for the first time" but my advice when trying to get it slowed down coming down the glideslope is "you can always drop the anchor" and lower the gear. Starting to think on the Airbus it's necessary more often than the E Jet.

Other than that, I still don't know what the heck I'm doing half the time. Having to continually do and mentally re-do 3:1 math in the descent is annoying. Tailwinds will catch you out QUICK, probably especially so in a fast jet like a Lear.

One of the most helpful things (I think) in multi crew ops is communicating your plans to the other person. Especially once you get comfortable about how quickly you can go and still get configured/stable on time. Avoids the "I'm gonna hoverhand over the flap lever/start asking "YOU WANT FLAPS??? YOU WANT THE GEAR??" if the other person knows your plan vs thinking that you're way behind the airplane and going to make us go around. New airplane I'm kind of in the camp of "I was going to probably start down/slow around here, what do you think?" which will get different answers depending on who you're flying with.
 
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