actual pic time

Captain_Bob

Well-Known Member
...subtract about 6-8 hours from the 140 for Multi "PIC" time... those first hours are your training hours for your Multi Cert... then it's all PIC from there.

Bob
 

bramlett

New Member
what about during your cross country phase when you are flying across the country with your partner? i know you both can't log pic at the same time.....

is it just that during the legs when you are actually flying the airplane you log pic and your partner just sits there.......and simply from the time your are the sole manipulator of the controls you are able to earn 132 hours of pic multi?
 

sixpack

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
what about during your cross country phase when you are flying across the country with your partner? i know you both can't log pic at the same time.....

is it just that during the legs when you are actually flying the airplane you log pic and your partner just sits there.......and simply from the time your are the sole manipulator of the controls you are able to earn 132 hours of pic multi?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bramlett:
There are many cases where two pilots can log PIC during one flight. One case that you're proabably familiar with, is when you fly with your instructor. Your instructor logs the flight as PIC too.
Another case where two pilots can log PIC is when practicing instrument (hood) work. Although they log two differnent types of flight time (Instrument vs VFR), they can both log PIC time. The FAA has granted this to encourage pilot to practice their instrument skills. The instrument pilot is the one operating the controls, where the VFR (safety) pilot is the one ensuring that the airplane is operated safely according to the FARs (e.g. see and avoid).
On these XC flights, the left-seat pilot is under the hood just after take-off, and removes the hood before landing. The right-seat pilot logs the time during which the left seat pilot is under the hood.
 

bramlett

New Member
now that makes better sense.... i wasnt sure if the left seat pilot would be under the hood the whole flight or not. i understand that in that case the left seat logs pic instrument and the right seat logs pic vfr. thanks so much for the help guys!
 

RPM

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
140 multi-engine Seminole
50 multi-simulator
10 single-engine C172
3 Jet Citation

[/ QUOTE ]

50 hours simulator time!! i didn't know it was that much. I thought they told me 190 hrs. in the seminole, and the sim time was extra on top of that. Thats pretty expensive to sit in the sim, maybe Ari Ben is a better choice with 200 hours actual flying time - no sim!!

I was pretty set on ATP over ARI BEN until I read this.
 

aviator

New Member
When those two students are logging PIC up front is the instructor sitting in the back logging PIC also?
 

Flugmaschine

New Member
One thing to consider before basing your decision on the sim time alone. Studies have shown, and no, I can't cite them off the top of my head, that retention of information is actually higher in a simulator vs. a real aircraft, because the sim can be stopped and the situation picked apart and reset instantly by the instructor. Not only that, you have unlimited access to the simulator. You can LOG only 50 hours toward the license, but you can spend all the time you want in there getting things down pat. Ari Ben will give you 50 more hours, true, but my money is on the ATP grad to have probably a better grasp of concepts. Just some food for thought...
 

sixpack

New Member
ATP trains students to be proficient multi-engine instrument pilots. The simulator is valuable training tool. Don't under-estimate the importance (especially during IFR training) of putting the plane on "pause" and explaining what just happened or is going to happen.

EXAMPLE: I put my students in the sim, gave them a clearance out of Los Angeles to Riverside (a complex departure right out of the plates. After take-off, tower (ake me) handed them off, and Socal Approach (me again) didn't respond to anymore radio calls. They realized enroute, that they were not prepared for the lost-comm procedure, and didn't immediately know what to do. About the time they got into real trouble, I paused the sim, explained the situation, and gave them two minutes to (re-)brief the DP. Much more careful this time, and I think they learned a good lesson.

When an ATP student passed their Instrument checkride, they get some CRM training, an internal XC checkride, and then they are release to dispatch for their "real" cross country flights. The student I refered to in my example, was based in Riverside. He flew up to Seattle and back, and then Jacksonville, FL and back. Dealt with all kinds of airspace, weather, and terrain. Most ATP pilots finish the program with a big stack of plates and enroute charts...not just one enroute, and 5 over-used approaches into the same two airports.
 

aloft

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
what about during your cross country phase when you are flying across the country with your partner? i know you both can't log pic at the same time.....

[/ QUOTE ]Oh lordy. I think this is a record for the shortest time between occurrences of this question; we just covered it a couple days ago!
 

pscraig

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Most ATP pilots finish the program with a big stack of plates and enroute charts...not just one enroute, and 5 over-used approaches into the same two airports.

[/ QUOTE ]

How true...I had to buy a larger flight bag for my cross-countries. Nothing like having nearly all of the Eastern and Southern US charts, plates and AFDs in your bag at once!

I'd have to agree about the sim, and am dismayed that some schools actually advertise their lack of sim time. You can learn a lot in the sim, without the distraction of actually flying, and can press pause or restart an approach at a certain place, making very efficient use of training time.
 

RPM

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
ATP trains students to be proficient multi-engine instrument pilots. The simulator is valuable training tool. Don't under-estimate the importance (especially during IFR training) of putting the plane on "pause" and explaining what just happened or is going to happen.

EXAMPLE: I put my students in the sim, gave them a clearance out of Los Angeles to Riverside (a complex departure right out of the plates. After take-off, tower (ake me) handed them off, and Socal Approach (me again) didn't respond to anymore radio calls. They realized enroute, that they were not prepared for the lost-comm procedure, and didn't immediately know what to do. About the time they got into real trouble, I paused the sim, explained the situation, and gave them two minutes to (re-)brief the DP. Much more careful this time, and I think they learned a good lesson.

When an ATP student passed their Instrument checkride, they get some CRM training, an internal XC checkride, and then they are release to dispatch for their "real" cross country flights. The student I refered to in my example, was based in Riverside. He flew up to Seattle and back, and then Jacksonville, FL and back. Dealt with all kinds of airspace, weather, and terrain. Most ATP pilots finish the program with a big stack of plates and enroute charts...not just one enroute, and 5 over-used approaches into the same two airports.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, for the extra insight about the sim training guys - I guess at first when I noticed that I was just thinking they were trying to screw ya out of some flight time! But your right, I can see how the sim time would be very valuable, being able to learn in a low pressure situation always helps.
and the sim is pretty sweet- http://www.allatps.com/news/2003-04-07_FTD.html - Is JAX the only location with this sim?

So ATP teaches good CRM procedures? Do they go into detail, or is the CRM training just brief?

Thanks guys-
 

Soonermurph

New Member
The first time I ran into extensive actual IFR (on my ATP cross countries) my mind immediately shifted to the sim training I did. I immagined being in the sim and had no problem whatsoever with disorientation. Now I fly in actual IFR about half the time here in Seattle. You will be glad that you have the sim training under your belt!
 

sixpack

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
So ATP teaches good CRM procedures? Do they go into detail, or is the CRM training just brief?

[/ QUOTE ] ATP teaches CRM as it relates to our XC's. Procedures are put in place, which include what-if scenarios. Roles and responsibilities are defined for each crew member and the dispatch office. The airlines also teach CRM, and I'm sure there's much more depth to their training. However, early exposure at ATP during the XC phase will give you good exposure to what you might expect in your airline job some day.
 
Top