A little courtesy is all I ask...

Matt13C

Well-Known Member
Today I was doing some flying at an uncontrolled field. It was not very busy, only one other person in the pattern. I announce departing runway 23, power up and take off. I climb out and announce turning left crosswind and a few seconds later another plane, who was not in the pattern prior, announces they are entering left crosswind for 23. Awesome!

I look out my left window, thinking maybe he crossed over the threshold and would be inside of me, I see nothing. I decide to turn downwind, thinking he is behind me now and hopefully he will fly an extended cross wind so we can get spacing. I announce turning left down wind and wouldn't you know it, a few seconds later so does the other guy.

Now he has to be inside me. I look out my left window and sure enough, there he is, about a half mile inside of me.

Now I am annoyed. I call, Archer on left downwind do you have the Cessna 172 on left downwind?
Archer-No
Me-Look off your right wing
Archer-Oh, OK I have you.
Me-I will do a right 360 for spacing.
Archer-Thanks

I am really not a hot head and saw no reason to yell at the guy over the radio. But seriously, I knew it was a slow day so I made extra announcements, once taking the active 23, another taking off 23 and a third turning crosswind for 23. If he was even paying the slightest bit of attention he would have heard my position calls.
 

Goonie

Never say die
Sucks huh?

Next time (and there will be plenty of next times) just ask where EXACTLY he is rather than looking in panic for a few moments. Don't bank and change altitude looking for the guy. just level off and fly straight.
 

JEP

Malko In Charge
Staff member
Today I was doing some flying at an uncontrolled field. It was not very busy, only one other person in the pattern. I announce departing runway 23, power up and take off. I climb out and announce turning left crosswind and a few seconds later another plane, who was not in the pattern prior, announces they are entering left crosswind for 23. Awesome!

.........
so the plane entered the pattern on the crosswind? It has been awhile since my ppl training, but that just doesn't seem to make sense.
 

Matt13C

Well-Known Member
Sucks huh?

Next time (and there will be plenty of next times) just ask where EXACTLY he is rather than looking in panic for a few moments. Don't bank and change altitude looking for the guy. just level off and fly straight.
Yeah, next time I will do just that. I will also continue to fly straight and level on cross wind.

so the plane entered the pattern on the crosswind? It has been awhile since my ppl training, but that just doesn't seem to make sense.

Yes he did. He was coming from the North and instead of overflying at 1000 over TPA then turning 180 and descending on the way back and entering on the 45 he just jumped into the pattern at crosswind.
 

bdhill1979

Gone West
it is not right, I would tell him to reference the AIM 4-3-3 for pattern entry procedures.

You don't have to be a dick about stupid things people do over the radio to tell them they are being stupid.

"Hey archer not sure if you are aware but the FAA says entering like that is a No-No"

If he takes it as a friendly suggestion, cool.

If he wants to be a dick about it then I call 800-255-1111 with his tail number.
 

aifiji

New Member
Reminds me of every time I fly into DeKalb, IL. Bunch of amateurs! Sucks getting cut off while on final.
 

Baradium

Well-Known Member
it is not right, I would tell him to reference the AIM 4-3-3 for pattern entry procedures.

You don't have to be a dick about stupid things people do over the radio to tell them they are being stupid.

"Hey archer not sure if you are aware but the FAA says entering like that is a No-No"

If he takes it as a friendly suggestion, cool.

If he wants to be a dick about it then I call 800-255-1111 with his tail number.
That is NOT regulatory. And I'm not sure the response to telling someone it was a "no-no" would be all that positive.


A big thing is how busy the airport is and making traffic calls.
 

JEP

Malko In Charge
Staff member
That is NOT regulatory. And I'm not sure the response to telling someone it was a "no-no" would be all that positive.
Alright show of hands......How many when obtaining their PPL learned to enter the pattern at TPA on the crosswind....?


Didn't think so.........

Granted the AIM may not be "regulatory" in nature, I would imagine if pilot 'A' caused an accident entering the pattern where said individual did, they would have a problem with it....
 

Matt13C

Well-Known Member
Alright show of hands......How many when obtaining their PPL learned to enter the pattern at TPA on the crosswind....?


Didn't think so.........

Granted the AIM may not be "regulatory" in nature, I would imagine if pilot 'A' caused an accident entering the pattern where said individual did, they would have a problem with it....
Thats my understanding.

I really do not have a problem with people entering on base, coming straight in or any non standard pattern entry methods. If you monitor the frequency, announce your intentions and get your head out of the plane to get some situational awareness it can be done safely.

If you hear someone is turning base, do not attempt to go straight in ahead of them. Someone on downwind, don't enter on base. Hear someone taking off then don't enter on crosswind a mile off the runway. If you are not going to monitor the frequency and announce your intentions before you are on top of the airport, then enter on the 45!
 

bdhill1979

Gone West
That is NOT regulatory. And I'm not sure the response to telling someone it was a "no-no" would be all that positive.


A big thing is how busy the airport is and making traffic calls.
Traffic calls are not regulatory either at a G or E airport, hell neither is having a radio at all. Still does not make it an acceptable practice.
 

tgrayson

New Member
If you monitor the frequency, announce your intentions and get your head out of the plane to get some situational awareness it can be done safely.
Our self discipline starts to erode when we start making special exemptions for ourselves. Once the habit is formed, it takes less and less for it to be triggered. The guy who pissed you off probably justified his habit using the reasoning you listed above, so he may be you in another year or two.:)

If you want to avoid being like him, commit yourself to respecting published procedures. If you make every flight like you're on a checkride, you don't ever have to worry when you're being evaluated.
 

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Our self discipline starts to erode when we start making special exemptions for ourselves. Once the habit is formed, it takes less and less for it to be triggered. The guy who pissed you off probably justified his habit using the reasoning you listed above, so he may be you in another year or two.:)

If you want to avoid being like him, commit yourself to respecting published procedures. If you make every flight like you're on a checkride, you don't ever have to worry when you're being evaluated.
Excellent advice, this.

I don't know if I'm older than you are or not, but there is a part of me that wants to be you (or like you) when I grow up.
 

wrxpilot

New Member
Alright show of hands......How many when obtaining their PPL learned to enter the pattern at TPA on the crosswind....?
Depends on the airport. At KLNA, we DO teach entering the pattern on upwind and/or xwind at TPA due to airspace issues (PBI class C). We don't have the option of overflying the field above TPA.

Works out fine, just have to listen up and look outside.
 

juxtapilot

Snowflake
While this is a little off topic, a radio should be mandatory IMO. If your airplane doesn't have an electrical system, buy a transceiver... That 200 dollars could save your life. Why you wouldn't want to have a radio is beyond me...

Of course it doesn't really help if pilots don't use it correctly, or follow standard procedures...
 

Grumpy01

New Member
A couple of items.


At an uncontrolled field, no radio is required. [Not to say is isn't a good thing to use if you have it.

If he was 1/2 mile inside you, just how far out were you when turning downwind ?
 

Matt13C

Well-Known Member
Our self discipline starts to erode when we start making special exemptions for ourselves. Once the habit is formed, it takes less and less for it to be triggered. The guy who pissed you off probably justified his habit using the reasoning you listed above, so he may be you in another year or two.:)

If you want to avoid being like him, commit yourself to respecting published procedures. If you make every flight like you're on a checkride, you don't ever have to worry when you're being evaluated.
I agree and I wish all pilots had your mentality. It s the type of pilot I strive to be. All we have to keep us safe are the standard procedures. Even if I had radar and a TCAS that let me know where every plane within a 30 mile ring was I still would not go diving in on the same leg as as someone else, especially unannounced. It creates an unnecessary pressure situation for the other pilot and it is unsafe.

Like I said to my instructor, regardless of who got us into the situation, I will always give way to another aircraft for both our sakes. I drive the same way and my attitude has not changed in the 10 years I have been doing that.

This brings up another question/thought. What is everyones thoughts on taking the active/departing while someone is on base or even final. I myself hold until nobody is on base or final. But I have had people jump out when I am on base and once when I was turning final.


A couple of items.


At an uncontrolled field, no radio is required. [Not to say is isn't a good thing to use if you have it.

If he was 1/2 mile inside you, just how far out were you when turning downwind ?
There is a hospital directly under runway heading so I turned to the left a bit on climb out for noise abatement. It put me a little over a mile from the field. I know it is a little wide but I don't want to turn onto downwind too soon and still have 500 feet to go before TPA. If someone was entering on downwind and I can't see above and next to me because of the high wing I could easily come right up underneath them if they come in unannounced.
 

Boris Badenov

He comes to save the day in a broken truck.
As long as we're on the subject of traffic patterns, could our resident CFIs cut back on the B-52 patterns? I don't mind slowing down to get behind you guys, but when you're going out three miles at 80 knots and I can't go below 120 without digging a hole if an engine quits...

Oh. And. Great, congrats, you landed. Now GET OFF THE RUNWAY.
 

Airdale

Well-Known Member
Matt,

When I was instructing I had some similiar issues down in Charlottesville. I was with a student and we had been doing pattern work for 30mins or so, making proper radio calls with nobody else in the area.

While climbing out after a touch and go, we announced turning left crosswind. Seconds later another aircraft, making his FIRST radio call, announced being ON the left crosswind. My student was flying and was looking in the direction we were turning, while I decided to look in the opposite direction. I saw an airplane heading right for us, at our altitude (about 500 below TPA).

I immediately grabbed the yoke from my student and rolled the aircraft into a 60+ degree bank while stomping some bottom side rudder and shoving the yoke forward. We nearly rolled 90 degrees over as the VSI pegged itself on the bottom. The houses started getting bigger quickly as the other aircraft passed directly over head, straight and level without making any manuevers. I could read the name "David Clark" on his headset.

I quickly recovered the aircraft after we resolved the collision conflict and realized now that we were 150' AGL. I probably reacted too violently and most certainly endangered ourselves with the manuever that I pulled, but it was just a reaction, I didn't even think. I climbed the aircraft up and re-entered the pattern, shaking like I had the flu on the controls. I landed the airplane and immediately taxied to the FBO behind this guy.

We exchanged some heated words before I called the FAA to report this. There was nothing the FAA could do, as this was an uncontrolled field and having a radio wasn't even required.

It was a serious wake up call for me to this day that gives me chills thinking about how close I came to eating dirt. One thing it taught me was NEVER trust other aircraft on the radio and NEVER keep your eyes inside the aircraft for too long. I SHOULD have been paying more close attention to not only the direction we were flying, but also the opposite direction. I probably would have seen this guy if I had been looking better and we could have avoided such a dangerous manuever at low altitude.

We pulled some G's and probably soiled our pants that day, but I felt lucky to be alive.
 

surreal1221

Well-Known Member
Just fly. . .do your own thing, and stay the hell away from those Mavericks.

Nothing you say can or would ever change their flying habits. You on the other hand, just need to fly as by the book as you can, and stay well clear of those #######s.

Don't get in a radio confrontation, and most certainly don't even worry about discussing their flying habits on the ground. It's pointless.
 
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