737 Max Airliners Ordered Immediately Grounded in the US

gotWXdagain

Highly Visible Member
Is that a way of saying capitalism in a society without moral moorings?
More or less. Unfettered anarcho-capitalism (“The free market will sort it out, we don’t need regulations!”) is just a way for people to pass the buck- of doing the hard work to keep their operation above board- onto some hypothetical non-existent perfectly moral group of CEOs/oligarchs who will only operate with the best of intentions.


But since those oligarchs don’t exist, business leaders are motivated purely by short term greed, they’ve all colluded with each other either directly or implicitly through the form of controlling messaging in the public domain (why does every democratic presidential candidate have to be “electable” and what does that even mean?!), so that enough people grew up thinking herp derp any new rule = big gubmint! And business leaders have, instead of opting for long term success, invest their money to maximize short term gains.

In the absence of stricter oversight, we get an appliance designed to fly 180 people through the sky that will, on its whim, happily lawn dart itself into terra firma and not tell its operators what it’s doing.
 

nibake

Powder hound
In the absence of stricter oversight, we get an appliance designed to fly 180 people through the sky that will, on its whim, happily lawn dart itself into terra firma and not tell its operators what it’s doing.
I have a hard time imagining what this looks like. I don't have any experience in the oversight sector to draw on, so that's not helping. But I'm pretty sure Boeing didn't want this to happen, and it was obviously a blunder. But what kind of oversight would be realistically expected to prevent this or other problems? Not everything can be prevented, and even strict oversight can't be omniscient nor omnipresent so idk. Maybe it's easy or simple but to me it just doesn't seem that way. I would like to have seen these accidents prevented as much as the next guy (obviously, but nothing "goes without saying" on the interwebz).
 

nibake

Powder hound
I have a hard time imagining what this looks like. I don't have any experience in the oversight sector to draw on, so that's not helping. But I'm pretty sure Boeing didn't want this to happen, and it was obviously a blunder. But what kind of oversight would be realistically expected to prevent this or other problems? Not everything can be prevented, and even strict oversight can't be omniscient nor omnipresent so idk. Maybe it's easy or simple but to me it just doesn't seem that way. I would like to have seen these accidents prevented as much as the next guy (obviously, but nothing "goes without saying" on the interwebz).
Would stricter oversight have prevented United 232 or the rudder hard-over accidents?
 

Der rote Baron

Well-Known Member
How is life as an AR at Boeing?

.....
Many engineers, employed by Boeing while officially designated to be the FAA’s eyes and ears, faced heavy pressure from Boeing managers to limit safety analysis and testing so the company could meet its schedule and keep down costs.
That pressure increased when the FAA stopped dealing directly with those designated employees — called “Authorized Representatives” or ARs — and let Boeing managers determine what was presented to the regulatory agency.
„The ARs have nobody supporting them. Nobody has their backs,” said one former Authorized Representative who worked on the 737 MAX and who provided details of the engineer’s removal from the program. “The system is absolutely broken.”.......
 

gotWXdagain

Highly Visible Member
@nibake I had a retort and then other people retorted better.

Indeed; wingnuts like masturbating furiously to Wealth of Nations but have no idea what's in The Theory of Moral Sentiments.
Which is where the theory of the invisible hand actually came from, and in order for it to work, those that control the means of production have to not be blinded by greed.
 

Autothrust Blue

"I'll take your case."

gotWXdagain

Highly Visible Member
I don’t think anyone at Boeing -wanted- this to happen; certainly fixing it is going to be terrifically expensive.

What I do wonder is if anyone stood up and said “damn it! Stop this—this is ridiculous” during any of it.
Apparently not, or at least not to the right people.
 

nibake

Powder hound
How is life as an AR at Boeing?

This is what my question refers to. How to you oversee or regulate something as abstract as this? 14 CFR Part 1260: Prohibition of greedy companies rushing poorly thought out aircraft designs and hence compromising safety?

Indeed; wingnuts like masturbating furiously to Wealth of Nations but have no idea what's in The Theory of Moral Sentiments.
While somewhat crass, your point is well taken.
 

Derg

Cap, Roci
Staff member
Would stricter oversight have prevented United 232 or the rudder hard-over accidents?
You do realize that there’s more “It will cost X to rectify the system but the cost of litigation is Y” involved in the design of most everything.

Engineers knew the DC-10’s hydraulic systems were a massive Achilles heel, but the probability of a catastrophic failure was so minute, it wasn’t worth the money to retrofit the fleet. Until, of course, it happened.

Same with the MCAS. Boeing knew they had a problem but the probability of it happening again was so minute, it wouldn’t have been financially feasible to rectify it and then it happened again and created a PR nightmare.

Maybe I’m just jaded from a couple classes with Bill Waldock. Ha! :)
 

Crop Duster

E pluribus unum
I don’t think anyone at Boeing -wanted- this to happen; certainly fixing it is going to be terrifically expensive.

What I do wonder is if anyone stood up and said “damn it! Stop this—this is ridiculous” during any of it.
A bunch of folks did... to each other, over beers, at a pub away from shop. Most folks want to keep their jobs. It takes a well-calcified spinal column to speak truth to recalcitrant (that's being nice) power when your income is at stake.
 

Roger Roger

Paid to sleep, fly for fun
A bunch of folks did... to each other, over beers, at a pub away from shop. Most folks want to keep their jobs. It takes a well-calcified spinal column to stand up to management recalcitrance.
Unless you also hang out at those bars, I don’t think you can say that with confidence at this stage of the investigation. The old adage about not attributing to malevolence what can be chalked up to incompetence.

Though, the more information that comes out, the more likely malevolence appears.
 

Crop Duster

E pluribus unum
Unless you also hang out at those bars, I don’t think you can say that with confidence. The old adage about not attributing to malevolence what can be chalked up to incompetence.
I do know one guy at the bar, and I'll take his word regarding the words of his colleagues. I'll also take the word of many others who have been quoted anonymously by reputable reporters. The burden of proof at this point is probable cause, not without a reasonable doubt.
 
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