18kt crosswind component on a 3800' runway pushing it?

BoDEAN

New Member
18kt crosswind component on a 3800\' runway pushing it?

Wondering what the other cfi's think.
Seems still for me in a Cessna 172.
 

GregCollins2

Well-Known Member
Re: 18kt crosswind component on a 3800\' runway pushing it?

If you have a direct 18K crosswind then you are in the test pilot zone. Cessna uses some pretty skilled pilots to determine the maximum x-wind component for the POH. Runway length isn't really a factor, if your crosswind technique is correct you will not use any more runway than on a no wind day, unless you are carrying a lot of extra speed to the flare, which isn't necessary unless the wind is gusty or highly variable.
Be careful man. It's hard to ever turn away a flight and do ground, but sometimes it's the best thing to do, even on a blue sky day.
 

braidkid

New Member
Re: 18kt crosswind component on a 3800\' runway pushing it?

Depends on the skill level of your student. If he/she is a beginning primary student, don't even try it because you will more than likely need to fly the airplane and it won't be fair learning environment for your student.
 

Mavmb

Well-Known Member
Re: 18kt crosswind component on a 3800\' runway pushing it?

What's the density altitude? If it's not too high, that should be okay for you. I wouldn't do those landings with a beginning student though. They won't get much out of it.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
Re: 18kt crosswind component on a 3800\' runway pushing it?

[ QUOTE ]
What's the density altitude? If it's not too high, that should be okay for you.

[/ QUOTE ] I'm curious why you'd tie it in to density altitude.
 

E_Dawg

Moderator
Re: 18kt crosswind component on a 3800\' runway pushing it?

Ain't no CFI but...

The length isn't the limiting factor, the width is. Course, you always shoot for centerline... but I'd be much more likely to try it on a 150' wide runway than on a 50 footer.

Anyways, 18kts is really pushing it in the high wing Cessnas IMHO. Max demo is what, 15? It only has so much rudder, and if you're maxed out on short final you'll have to go around because you'd end up landing slightly crabbed because of the speed loss in the flare, but less flaps would minimize that.
 

Eagle

New Member
Re: 18kt crosswind component on a 3800\' runway pushing it?

do not confuse the max crosswind componant with a limiting factor. that is only a measurement created by Cessna when the aircraft was certified it is NOT the maximum the aircraft can handle.

18kts? not a big deal, Quick Gusting winds changing from 5kts to 20kts that would get my attention, but not keep me from landing. nor would it keep me on the ground if I wanted to go somewhere.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
Re: 18kt crosswind component on a 3800\' runway pushing it?

[ QUOTE ]

Anyways, 18kts is really pushing it in the high wing Cessnas IMHO. Max demo is what, 15? It only has so much rudder, and if you're maxed out on short final you'll have to go around because you'd end up landing slightly crabbed because of the speed loss in the flare, but less flaps would minimize that.

[/ QUOTE ]A lot has to do with technique. Without getting in to the silly argument about which is the "right" way, running out of rudder is pretty much a "wing low" phenomenon. Dip the wing too much to prevent drift and you won't have enough rudder to compensate.

So long as you are in a crab with wings level and rudder coordinated, you can't run out. The later that you delay the transition to wing low, the stronger the winds have to be before you'd run out of rudder. A true "crab and kick" maven can probably land in the maximum amount of crosswind she's able to taxi the airplane in.

Remember that there's a reason the max demo crosswind isn't a limitation. It usually starts out with a number that the manufacturer =wants= to put in the POH. It's saying "a reasonably proficient pilot should be able to handle this" not "the airplane would have trouble handling more"
 

GregCollins2

Well-Known Member
Re: 18kt crosswind component on a 3800\' runway pushing it?

You are correct that it is not a limiting factor, you can attempt whatever you wish, however, the Cessna test pilots that determined the maximum x-wind component are quite skilled and it is in Cessna's interest from a sales standpoint to claim high cross wind capability. I have personally landed in much higher winds and walked away. That does not mean it is prudent to deliberately exceed the manufacturer's recommendations. The NTSB has a long list of accidents that can be attributed to loss of control while trying to land in windy conditions. If we choose to ignore the POH when we fly with our students we set a very bad example.
 

Eagle

New Member
Re: 18kt crosswind component on a 3800\' runway pushing it?

[ QUOTE ]
You are correct that it is not a limiting factor, you can attempt whatever you wish, however, the Cessna test pilots that determined the maximum x-wind component are quite skilled and it is in Cessna's interest from a sales standpoint to claim high cross wind capability.

[/ QUOTE ]

apples and oranges comparison.

If Cessna said it had a 2kt xwind componant it would not effect the skill level of the test pilots nor the sales of the acft. it is only a 'punch card' item that means very little in real life.
 

Buzo

Well-Known Member
Re: 18kt crosswind component on a 3800\' runway pushing it?

There is a big difference between Maximum crosswind component and Demonstrated crosswind component. Cessna uses Demonstrated.
 

FL270

New Member
Re: 18kt crosswind component on a 3800\' runway pushing it?

Not a problem ... keep in mind that wing-low may not work in heavy crosswinds as you will "run out" of rudder. A "kickout" method may be used instead. Barry Schiff did an article about kickouts a year or two ago in AOPA Pilot; if you can find it, read it. If not, the basic deal is to stay in your crab, tracking the centerline, all the way in to the flare. Just before touchdown, "kick" the rudder to straighten the nose and use the ailerons to force the upwind wheel on to the runway, then down comes the downwind wheel and finally the nose. Example: left crosswind. Stay in the crab through the flare ... within a foot or so of the ground, kick in right rudder and straighten the nose, then promptly roll in aileron to the left (fairly aggressively) to firmly plant the left main on the runway. Give it a little aileron to the right to set the right main down, lower the nose and roll in left aileron for crosswind correction as you roll out.

Using this technique, it is possible to land an airplane well in excess of its "demonstrated" crosswind component. Try it with a good CFI before doing it on your own, of course, but it is a good technique to use in high crosswinds when wing-low might result in your running out of rudder effectiveness.

Runway length is not a major consideration, width may be ... just remember that once you kick out, the rest of the steps need to happen in fairly rapid succession to prevent excessive drift from the runway centerline.

Good luck and fly safe!

FL270
 

GregCollins2

Well-Known Member
Re: 18kt crosswind component on a 3800\' runway pushing it?

It is not always a question of skill. The test pilots are quite skilled. The problem is as stated above - there is only so much rudder force available, no matter how skilled you are. The test pilots fly the airplane in various conditions during certification to determine how the airplane performs. The results of these tests are the basis for the recommendations the manufacturer publishes. The original question was whether landing a Cessna in an 18kt. x-wind is "pushing it". It is certainly fair to say that exceeding any recommendation the manufacturer makes is "pushing it" regardless of whether you can physically do it or not.
 

C650CPT

Well-Known Member
Re: 18kt crosswind component on a 3800\' runway pushing it?

This is one of the most misunderstood things in aviation. The crosswind limit is NOT a limit in the sense that it is all the airplane or the test pilot could handle. It IS a minimum value that the manufacturer has to demonstrate controllability with full flaps based on the stall speed of the wing. This is why many pilots CAN land an airplane at or above the demonstrated component. There is no incentive on the part of the manufacturer to go beyond his minimum requirement. Now that all said, if you elect to land above the Manufactureres stated limit and have an accident the FAA will call into question your judgement and hand you a 91.13 viloation and equally important the insurance company will subragate (sp) the claim back to you. Don't shy away from wind but be wise and know your limits and experience level.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
Re: 18kt crosswind component on a 3800\' runway pushing it?

[ QUOTE ]
It is not always a question of skill. The test pilots are quite skilled.

[/ QUOTE ] We're on different pages on this. With your repeated use of "skilled" "test pilots", it seem you are assuming that all this skill was being tested, that 15 knots was in fact the highest crosswind they landed in, and that Cessna had an interest in find a high number as a selling point.

I have a slightly different view of the process.

I think that Cessna's test pilots landed the airplane in much, much higher crosswinds than 15 KTS while testing the airplane. Then, based on the reports of the handling of the airplane in various wind conditions and configurations, Cessna decided on a number to publish that was high enough to be useful but low enough to avoid liability problems.

BTW, I am not suggesting that folks go out and jump in their 172s and go looking for 20-Kt crosswinds. Most of the pilots I've seen would have trouble with a xwind component more than 10-12 kts. But landing in an 18 KT xwind in a 172 hardly qualifies for test pilot status.
 

C650CPT

Well-Known Member
Re: 18kt crosswind component on a 3800\' runway pushing it?

Its NOT an arbitrary number, The test pilots know before they fly the airplane what the value is based on the designed stall speed of the wing. The purpose of the test flight is to validate controllability. Again they certify the lowest value required by regulation, not a higher number to "sell" airplanes.
 

GregCollins2

Well-Known Member
Re: 18kt crosswind component on a 3800\' runway pushing it?

Certification requires that the manufacturer demonstrate that the airplane is controllable in a direct side wind speed of .2 x VSO. That works out to 9.6 knots for a Skyhawk and 8.8 knots for a Warrior. The manufacturer does indeed have an incentive to demonstrate a higher value. A higher value implies to the consumer that the airplane is "safer" in adverse conditions and requires less skill to fly.
Anytime you exceed the manufacturer's recommendations you are in a sense testing the abilities of the airplane and yourself. That is what I meant by test pilot, not that anyone that is capable of landing a Skyhawk in 16 knot crosswinds must have superior piloting skills. I would agree that the numbers probably have much to do with liabilty.
 

C650CPT

Well-Known Member
Re: 18kt crosswind component on a 3800\' runway pushing it?

§23.233 Directional stability and control.


(a) A 90 degree cross-component of wind velocity, demonstrated to be safe for taxiing, takeoff, and landing must be established and must be not less than 0.2 VSO.

(b) The airplane must be satisfactorily controllable in power-off landings at normal landing speed, without using brakes or engine power to maintain a straight path until the speed has decreased to at least 50 percent of the speed at touchdown.

(c) The airplane must have adequate directional control during taxiing.


Very good Greg
I am not totlly shure why the discrepency on the speed, except that the reg says not less than 0.2 VSO. I was taught (law of Primacy) that it was a hard and fast number pre decided but it appears that the manufacturer has some leway on upping the value as you say to sell a safer airplane.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
Re: 18kt crosswind component on a 3800\' runway pushing it?

[ QUOTE ]
I am not totlly shure why the discrepency on the speed, except that the reg says not less than 0.2 VSO. I was taught (law of Primacy) that it was a hard and fast number pre decided but it appears that the manufacturer has some leway on upping the value as you say to sell a safer airplane.

[/ QUOTE ]What discrepancy? 0.2 Vso is a certification requirement that establishes a minimum requirement for control in a crosswind. There are many more examples. Manufacturers are free (and hopefully do) to make their products better and stronger than the bare minimums.
 

Mavmb

Well-Known Member
Re: 18kt crosswind component on a 3800\' runway pushing it?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What's the density altitude? If it's not too high, that should be okay for you.

[/ QUOTE ] I'm curious why you'd tie it in to density altitude.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any mountainous airport in the summer 3800 ft isn't that long anymore. Try Flagstaff, AZ on a hot summer day! You'll see what I mean, and you'll wish that crosswind was a headwind!
 
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