1500 hour rule...anyone?

Pilot Fighter

Well-Known Member
#41
The 1,500 hour rule works, but not in the way that a layman or the uninitiated would think.
It is very likely that the 1500 rule has raised the bar for the worst (lowest quartile) of the new 121 first officers while possibly lowering the bar for the median of the same group. While I think this has probably resulted in an improvement in 121 safety could we have done better? I think so.

What happened? We lost this idea of quality time. It wouldn’t take much to improve on the current rule.

Toss out SIC time, it’s a confusing mess of hours of inconsistent significance.

For a CFI that builds his time in light singles, 1500 sounds like a good PIC number.

Add a 2x multiplier for turbine or multi-engine and we’ve revisited the idea of quality time. I’d like to have a multiplier for IFR ops but that gets messy as you can rack up IFR hours in VFR conditions.

I’m not sure of what the best formula is, but clearly not all hours are created equal.

I think that I was at my best after 400 hours PIC in King Airs. Parts of my game have improved but overall I’m not sure.

Bottom line, the 1500 rule is a dull knife solution. As we see more 172 ATP’s over time, I’m not sure that Sully’s vision will be realized.
 
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Seggy

Well-Known Member
#42
Not really true, since none of those accidents were Gulfstream accidents. The king daddy of them all, 3701, had a TSA pilot at the controls, who then became a Gulfstream street captain, not a low time guy, and then went to Pinnacle. So while it's convenient for you to pretend that's the case, the facts don't fit it.

It's important to note that Gulfstream never had a fatal accident, or even a serious accident of any kind, in all its years of operation.

It is true. Stop lying.
 

Seggy

Well-Known Member
#44
Actually, come to think of it, you weren’t even on the Council then! You served only one term. You were gone by then. Nice try, Wookie!
Wrong again, Peter. The briefings and process started before we were on the council and ended after I was on the council. But I obviously paid attention and was still taking to the players.

Look who was the point man for ALPA on this rule. A long time human factors/safety volunteer. Not someone from the collective bargaining committee.
 

ATN_Pilot

Socialist Pig Member
#45
Wrong again, Peter. The briefings and process started before we were on the council and ended after I was on the council. But I obviously paid attention and was still taking to the players.

Look who was the point man for ALPA on this rule. A long time human factors/safety volunteer. Not someone from the collective bargaining committee.
Whatever you feel you need to lie about to justify it. We both know the truth, even if I’m the only one who will admit it.

And again, I still support the rule. I just don’t see any need to lie about the motivations for it.
 
#46
The 1,500 hour rule works, but not in the way that a layman or the uninitiated would think.

Essentially, in the civilian track, it acts as a vetting process. If you make it the 1,200 hours or so to get to 1,500, acting as a PIC making the hard calls and learning to say "no", rather than letting the captain and autopilot do the work, then the chances are you'll do ok. People who have problems generally get weeded out by some combination of employer, FAA or self-extinguishment issues.

Sure, there are some 600 hour pilots out there that are good sticks, but this game is about so much more than that. More often or not I've seen the low time good sticks quickly overwhelmed when the decision points start adding up in the queue, and they lose focus rapidly.

There are always exceptions, but in this case, the bell curve solution works darn well.
I agree.

I'm not a huge believer in "paying your dues" for the sake of everyone having to endure some suck, but a little bit of adversity tends to weed out the amateurs. In my career, the most enjoyable and competent people to work with have been the ones who have always had the bug. People like that will keep working until they succeed. After that they will keep working and learning to better themselves because they take pride in what they do.

If I had to pick a group of people who suck at this job, it's the midlife career changers. Not to say I haven't flown with some absolutely amazing pilots who fall into this group. I'm definitely not saying all career changers suck, but rather many people who suck are career changers. In my experience the real problem children tend to be the ones who like to wear the uniform and stand at the door kissing hands, shaking babies, and making lengthy PAs. I don't know if it is a sense of entitlement they've transported form accomplishments achieved in their old profession, but it seems like they want to play airline pilot instead of actually being any good at it. A little hardship and required effort will weed these people out.

Plus 1500 hours is hardly an insurmountable goal. I'll admit that I was lucky and was hired in the few year window when having 660 hours made me a high timer. I worked most of a year as a flight instructor and fully intended to stick around until I had at least 1,000 hours. The only reason I jumped early was because I saw the music beginning to slow and wanted to make sure I had a chair. Timing is everything and that decision kept me from getting furloughed by 7 people.
 

z987k

Well-Known Member
#47
Hmm. I didn't know the RV-12 was a certified light-sport. Does that mean it's a Part 23 certificated aircraft or just that it conforms to the specs of the LSA designation?
The RV-12 can be S-LSA(Certified, factory built) or E-LSA(Experimental). The Kitfox 7 is the same way, and probably a few others. S-LSA doesn't need to meet part 23 standards, just ATSM.
Doesn't the CFI need a letter of deviation authority (LODA)?
I didn't think so but reading through 91.319 makes me not sure.
 

Seggy

Well-Known Member
#48
Whatever you feel you need to lie about to justify it. We both know the truth, even if I’m the only one who will admit it.
Do you realize you are saying that ALPA would jeopardize 90 years of safety authority over this rule by having someone from the ASO be the point man on it?
 

Richman

Well-Known Member
#50
I agree.

I'm not a huge believer in "paying your dues" for the sake of everyone having to endure some suck, but a little bit of adversity tends to weed out the amateurs. In my career, the most enjoyable and competent people to work with have been the ones who have always had the bug. People like that will keep working until they succeed. After that they will keep working and learning to better themselves because they take pride in what they do.

If I had to pick a group of people who suck at this job, it's the midlife career changers. Not to say I haven't flown with some absolutely amazing pilots who fall into this group. I'm definitely not saying all career changers suck, but rather many people who suck are career changers. In my experience the real problem children tend to be the ones who like to wear the uniform and stand at the door kissing hands, shaking babies, and making lengthy PAs. I don't know if it is a sense of entitlement they've transported form accomplishments achieved in their old profession, but it seems like they want to play airline pilot instead of actually being any good at it. A little hardship and required effort will weed these people out.

Plus 1500 hours is hardly an insurmountable goal. I'll admit that I was lucky and was hired in the few year window when having 660 hours made me a high timer. I worked most of a year as a flight instructor and fully intended to stick around until I had at least 1,000 hours. The only reason I jumped early was because I saw the music beginning to slow and wanted to make sure I had a chair. Timing is everything and that decision kept me from getting furloughed by 7 people.
I've seen those kind of guys seriously mess up a program, especially if they're in tight with management/ownership. At a part 91/135 operator, without some kind of formal oversight or professional standards....phew...just be elsewhere (by a LOT) when the poop grenade goes off....and it always does.

As far as standard distributions, well, they're standard for a reason. They got them printed in books and charts and everything. For something like aviation, which has been around 100+ years, you'd hear about it if it wasn't standard.

Besides, years and years of 61, 141 and 121 anecdotal experience aligns with it darn well.
 

BigZ

Well-Known Member
#51
Hmm. I didn't know the RV-12 was a certified light-sport. Does that mean it's a Part 23 certificated aircraft or just that it conforms to the specs of the LSA designation?
S-LSA and E-LSA are ASTM standards where the FAA and the industry reps got together, came up with a minimum list of stuff to comply with. Manufacturer declares compliance and the feds do random audits vs everything being certified. Part 23 is on track to become something similar, at first in fancy avionics and autopilots.

Doesn't the CFI need a letter of deviation authority (LODA)?
The stuff in the 91.319 refers to something else. Before the light sports there were the part 103 (I believe thats the correct part. Kinda sleepy though and too lazy to look up) ultralights, which didn't require any certification. Teaching yourself to fly one though might still kill you, so the "fat ultralights" came around - two seaters that didn't quite fit the part 103. There was a LODA for teaching in those (and collecting the $ for the service and the aircraft), but with the introduction of light sports feds put a deadline by which the "fat ultralights" either had to be converted to lights sports, or the activity had to be knocked out.
A lot of 91.319 doesn't apply with properly written operating limitations. Older experimentals from 80s and early 90s have very restrictive paperwork, not the case anymore. Moreover older operating limitations can be superceded by a new issue, provided you can find a DAR with "function 33" on their certificate - but those dudes are rare. There's exactly one in FL and zero in the DC and neighboring states.
 

Low&Slow

Ancora imparo
#52
I agree.

I'm not a huge believer in "paying your dues" for the sake of everyone having to endure some suck, but a little bit of adversity tends to weed out the amateurs. In my career, the most enjoyable and competent people to work with have been the ones who have always had the bug. People like that will keep working until they succeed. After that they will keep working and learning to better themselves because they take pride in what they do.

If I had to pick a group of people who suck at this job, it's the midlife career changers. Not to say I haven't flown with some absolutely amazing pilots who fall into this group. I'm definitely not saying all career changers suck, but rather many people who suck are career changers. In my experience the real problem children tend to be the ones who like to wear the uniform and stand at the door kissing hands, shaking babies, and making lengthy PAs. I don't know if it is a sense of entitlement they've transported form accomplishments achieved in their old profession, but it seems like they want to play airline pilot instead of actually being any good at it. A little hardship and required effort will weed these people out.

Plus 1500 hours is hardly an insurmountable goal. I'll admit that I was lucky and was hired in the few year window when having 660 hours made me a high timer. I worked most of a year as a flight instructor and fully intended to stick around until I had at least 1,000 hours. The only reason I jumped early was because I saw the music beginning to slow and wanted to make sure I had a chair. Timing is everything and that decision kept me from getting furloughed by 7 people.
If I make the career change, I'll be a mid-lifer career changer, but I've had "the bug" longer than most people on this forum have been alive, roughly 47 years.
I have achieved some pretty significant accomplishments in my life, but they weren't given to me. I don't have any sense of entitlement from those accomplishments, just the opposite in fact. I expect to earn my success through hard work and study, just like I always have.
I've had a tough life and worked harder than many people ever will throughout most of it. Frankly, I don't want to wear ANY uniform, kiss anybody's baby, shake anybody's hand, or make any PAs. I just want to fly.
Everything else is just noise and PR bs, but if that's part of the job, then, yeah I'll do my job, put on a show, and do all of that peripheral garbage too, and I'll do it with a smile. That's part of what they hired me to do. It's my job.
I've seen lots more entitlement among the millennial generation than I've seen in folks my age.
 
#53
If I make the career change, I'll be a mid-lifer career changer, but I've had "the bug" longer than most people on this forum have been alive, roughly 47 years.
I have achieved some pretty significant accomplishments in my life, but they weren't given to me. I don't have any sense of entitlement from those accomplishments, just the opposite in fact. I expect to earn my success through hard work and study, just like I always have.
I've had a tough life and worked harder than many people ever will throughout most of it. Frankly, I don't want to wear ANY uniform, kiss anybody's baby, shake anybody's hand, or make any PAs. I just want to fly.
Everything else is just noise and PR bs, but if that's part of the job, then, yeah I'll do my job, put on a show, and do all of that peripheral garbage too, and I'll do it with a smile. That's part of what they hired me to do. It's my job.
I've seen lots more entitlement among the millennial generation than I've seen in folks my age.
Then you'll do just fine. I'm 34 so I'm a borderline millennial. I have seen the opposite.

I've been at my current gig in 3 years in September. Only time I've had to play the "look, I'm the senior FO and acting PIC. You need to do this" was to a 49 year old dude who spent most of the flight complaining about entitled millennials. We were trying to check into Indonesian ATC approaching their FIR. He tried once and said "eh, they know where we are."

I expected people to miss this part, which is why I repeated it. But I'm not saying that all career changers suck at this job. I'm just saying that in my experience, most people who suck at this are career changers who think that their previous accolades and accomplishments somehow transfer to an entirely different field.
 

Low&Slow

Ancora imparo
#54
Then you'll do just fine. I'm 34 so I'm a borderline millennial. I have seen the opposite.

I've been at my current gig in 3 years in September. Only time I've had to play the "look, I'm the senior FO and acting PIC. You need to do this" was to a 49 year old dude who spent most of the flight complaining about entitled millennials. We were trying to check into Indonesian ATC approaching their FIR. He tried once and said "eh, they know where we are."

I expected people to miss this part, which is why I repeated it. But I'm not saying that all career changers suck at this job. I'm just saying that in my experience, most people who suck at this are career changers who think that their previous accolades and accomplishments somehow transfer to an entirely different field.
Okay, I got you. Some skills and habits will transfer, for better or for worse, but like the stock market, yesterday's accomplishments won't necessarily guarantee tomorrow's success. Like they say, the only easy day was yesterday.
I don't know if the airlines are for me to be honest. I like variety, freedom, hand-flying, adventure, independence, and being home every night. As far as I can tell, airlines are pretty much the opposite of those. I dislike crowds, traffic, people, and cities. As far as I can tell, those things pretty much define airline flying. I'll give it a try though. I'm pretty adaptable and besides, I can always quit if I'm not happy there.
 
#56
Okay, I got you. Some skills and habits will transfer, for better or for worse, but like the stock market, yesterday's accomplishments won't necessarily guarantee tomorrow's success. Like they say, the only easy day was yesterday.
I don't know if the airlines are for me to be honest. I like variety, freedom, hand-flying, adventure, independence, and being home every night. As far as I can tell, airlines are pretty much the opposite of those. I dislike crowds, traffic, people, and cities. As far as I can tell, those things pretty much define airline flying. I'll give it a try though. I'm pretty adaptable and besides, I can always quit if I'm not happy there.
There are definitely skills that transfer. Mostly people related skills.

Airline flying is really different depending on where you work. Not trying to convince you one way or another, but let me see if I can try to explain. Really the only non negotiable is being home every night. But even that I think I can paint into a positive.

Variety: I spent 8 years at a regional. For 5 of those years I was at a small base that only went to 14 places. That definitely got pretty boring. Now I work at an ACMI carrier. I don't know the stats, but when I interviewed they told me that in the previous year they went to 400+ different airports world wide. Depending on the base you can have a pretty predictable schedule in terms of destinations, or you can bid a base where you do some pretty interesting stuff.

Freedom: I have about 1,000 pages worth of manuals telling me how to do my job. Some of it is irritating busywork, the rest are some pretty decent guidelines that exist for a reason. There's not a ton of room for interpretation, but it certainly makes it easier to know what to expect from the people you're working with. I'm not sure what kind of work you do currently, but freedom exists in different ways in the airline industry. My bosses have absolutely no idea who I am. 99% of the time you show up, look over the paperwork, go fly an airplane, then go home/to the overnight and leave work at work. That's the best kind of freedom to me. I've been at my current place 2.8 years and not once have I had my boss call me asking about something.

Hand-flying: I definitely would enjoy a little more opportunity to hand fly. But that's not saying that the opportunities don't exist. Again, I think that is airline dependent. I know friends at Delta are saying they have been concentrating on having people hand fly more. At my current shop there weren't really any restrictions until we had a recent incident. Now any RNAV departure requires the autopilot to be on as soon as possible. Personally I don't feel that would have prevented the incident, but I don't own the airplane.

Adventure: Since I started at my current airline I've been to 22 countries.

Independence: Basically see my comments on Freedom. As long as you fly the airplane like you're supposed to, you won't hear a word. Then on the overnight you're free to do whatever you want...except cocaine.

Being home every night: This is the only real non negotiable. It's possible to have this as an end goal in your career, but even then not much of a guarantee. Bases close all the time, so if you move to a base and drive to work, there's no guarantee that you won't show up one day to hear that you've just become a commuter again. Even when I was home based, I'm not sure I'd want to be home every night. The few times I tried that I'd end up sitting in traffic in each direction and not spending nearly as much time at home as I'd hoped. To me with airline flying you're trading frequency at home for quality time. In the end the amount of time shakes out to be about the same, but if you're working 4 on 3 off you have 3 days where you can truly unplug and relax. It isn't for everyone, but at my current company, most trips are 17 days long. That's a long time to be away from home, but on the flip side I get damn near two weeks to relax and forget that I even have a job.

Not trying to convince you one way or another, but I think you'd do yourself well to talk to a bunch of people who work at various places and figure out where you think you'd fit in. Admittedly I haven't done any flying other than training, instructing, and 121. But most of my friends who tried going other routes have ended up eventually moving on to 121 carriers. As far as I know, none of them regret it.
 

Low&Slow

Ancora imparo
#57
Cool, thanks for the brief overview and perspective. I'm a country boy who hates cities and I've been apprehensive about going 121 because I didn't think I'd fit in, but it doesn't sound as bad as I imagined. I'll give it a go when I start getting near 1500.
I'm currently a full-time Michigan Army National Guard airframe mechanic.
 

z987k

Well-Known Member
#58
Cool, thanks for the brief overview and perspective. I'm a country boy who hates cities and I've been apprehensive about going 121 because I didn't think I'd fit in, but it doesn't sound as bad as I imagined. I'll give it a go when I start getting near 1500.
I'm currently a full-time Michigan Army National Guard airframe mechanic.
It doesn't normally pay as much, but there's some pretty rural 121 jobs.
 

Low&Slow

Ancora imparo
#59
It doesn't normally pay as much, but there's some pretty rural 121 jobs.
That's fine with me. I don't need a six-digit income, I just want to be happy. I had one once and it was the worst job I've ever had. The money was nice, but I hated my life.
 
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