130 hour pilot to commercial/CFI

CarlosSi

New Member
Hey y’all. First time poster. This is actually a more general question than relating to ATP, but it relates to training (wasn’t sure where to put it). I’ve tried several times trying to receive financial aid through both Wells Fargo and Sallie Mae with different co-signers and loan amounts, but nothing has worked (I have one more co-signer who I’d like to try out).

I’ve come up with alternatives though if ATP financing doesn’t work out.

I currently have 135 hours total, 29 hours PIC, 18.8 hours XC, and 11.3 XC PIC (I finished private with over 100 hours...). The commercial requirements are 100 hours PIC including 50 hours being XC and 50 hours in airplanes (this is fine). There’s also a bunch of other requirements like having 10 hours in a complex aircraft. It seems like earning the IFR rating would cover the 50 hour PIC XC minimum, although I’m not sure how that works since you’re either with an instructor and time logged isn’t PIC, or you’re flying solo IFR...?

Other than that there’s “time-building”, but I don’t know how much time building I would have to do once I earn my IFR rating to get close to the 250 hours to start commercial training.

After that, I may stretch my loan a bit to pay for the CFI (I received a personal loan to help pa for training*******. This part I am iffy about. I’m going to one of those local FBO schools and not through college or a “career technical school” like ATP. My banker said in my case I’m fine. I would like to hear some opinions on this. My argument is this is sort of on the recreational side than on the typical college/tech school side (probably doesn’t fit the bank’s definition of a school), but would like some clarity), while staying with my parents, then earn enough for multi as I save and pay off that loan and part of my student loan from college.

ATP would be less of an ambiguous clusterfart than going it alone and choosing my training. I have to restrict my flying to once per month if I want to save for commercial (I borrowed $12K, and plan to be able to save about $900-1000 a month with a second job). I may get a little help from my uncle save.

Tl;dr, how much would a pilot of my experience need to spend to earn a commercial and IFR rating (I’m assuming IFR will take about $8-10K), and what’s the typical hour breakdown progression going from IFR to time build to starting commercial training? Many thanks!
 

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Hey y’all. First time poster. This is actually a more general question than relating to ATP, but it relates to training (wasn’t sure where to put it). I’ve tried several times trying to receive financial aid through both Wells Fargo and Sallie Mae with different co-signers and loan amounts, but nothing has worked (I have one more co-signer who I’d like to try out).

I’ve come up with alternatives though if ATP financing doesn’t work out.

I currently have 135 hours total, 29 hours PIC, 18.8 hours XC, and 11.3 XC PIC (I finished private with over 100 hours...). The commercial requirements are 100 hours PIC including 50 hours being XC and 50 hours in airplanes (this is fine). There’s also a bunch of other requirements like having 10 hours in a complex aircraft. It seems like earning the IFR rating would cover the 50 hour PIC XC minimum, although I’m not sure how that works since you’re either with an instructor and time logged isn’t PIC, or you’re flying solo IFR...?
You still log PIC. See 14 CFR 61.51(e)(1)(i)

After that, I may stretch my loan a bit to pay for the CFI (I received a personal loan to help pa for training*******. This part I am iffy about. I’m going to one of those local FBO schools and not through college or a “career technical school” like ATP. My banker said in my case I’m fine. I would like to hear some opinions on this. My argument is this is sort of on the recreational side than on the typical college/tech school side (probably doesn’t fit the bank’s definition of a school), but would like some clarity), while staying with my parents, then earn enough for multi as I save and pay off that loan and part of my student loan from college.
Argument about what? What's the question? Whether or not your loan funds can be used for this? Do you mean that you don't believe your banker? Not understanding the question.
 

Der_Meister

Well-Known Member
If you can find a school that has a 141 program you might be able to cut the hours needed short a bit from the part 61 hour requirements. Also some of the schools have AATD's which can cut down on the cost of instrument flying. They might also have ideas on how to cover some of the cost with loan help and such.
 

CarlosSi

New Member
You still log PIC. See 14 CFR 61.51(e)(1)(i)



Argument about what? What's the question? Whether or not your loan funds can be used for this? Do you mean that you don't believe your banker? Not understanding the question.
Regarding the last question, I was wondering if anyone thought I couldn’t use a personal loan for flight training, even if it’s not a college where I would be going.

If you can find a school that has a 141 program you might be able to cut the hours needed short a bit from the part 61 hour requirements. Also some of the schools have AATD's which can cut down on the cost of instrument flying. They might also have ideas on how to cover some of the cost with loan help and such.
Not a bad idea, however, my issue is getting from PPL to commercial/CFI. I’m not too concerned with the 1500 hour minimum being 500 hours higher than that for part 141.

My local flight school has an FTSD I can log time on legally.

How many hours would it take to finish IFR? It doesn’t look like commercial training in itself is expensive as much as it is because of time-building to 250 (schools advertise a lot for commercial because they lump it with time building). In my case I have 120 hours to go total time, along with the other requirements that could be completed along the way.
 

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Regarding the last question, I was wondering if anyone thought I couldn’t use a personal loan for flight training, even if it’s not a college where I would be going.
Personal loans are not education loans - you can use it for whatever. That's part of the reason the interest rates are so much higher.

Not a bad idea, however, my issue is getting from PPL to commercial/CFI. I’m not too concerned with the 1500 hour minimum being 500 hours higher than that for part 141.
Here's where you need to do your homework: if you do your IR/Commercial through an accredited 141 school as part of an aviation degree then you qualify for the restricted ATP.

However, if you just do a regular, non-collegiate 141 program for IR, you can eliminate the 50 hour XC requirement for the IR. It has nothing to do with the restricted ATP.

My local flight school has an FTSD I can log time on legally.
Look carefully into this. There are FTDs, AATDs, and full-blown sims. Make sure your sim/device is approved for this kind of operation - not all of them are. Even if it is approved, there are still limits as to how many hours you may apply toward the certificate or rating.[/quote]

How many hours would it take to finish IFR? It doesn’t look like commercial training in itself is expensive as much as it is because of time-building to 250 (schools advertise a lot for commercial because they lump it with time building). In my case I have 120 hours to go total time, along with the other requirements that could be completed along the way.
That depends largely on you. In practical terms, how often you train and study. 2-3 times a week is ideal - you'll spend less if you do it that way. If you are prepared each lesson and you do a thorough debrief after each one, you might be able to do it under the minimums.
 

Der_Meister

Well-Known Member
However, if you just do a regular, non-collegiate 141 program for IR, you can eliminate the 50 hour XC requirement for the IR. It has nothing to do with the restricted ATP.
This is what I was getting at in regards to a 141 school. It will reduce your time requirements for commercial. And many have AATD's that are good for instrument work and can save quite a bit of $ if build into a Instrument TCO.
 

CarlosSi

New Member
Personal loans are not education loans - you can use it for whatever. That's part of the reason the interest rates are so much higher.



Here's where you need to do your homework: if you do your IR/Commercial through an accredited 141 school as part of an aviation degree then you qualify for the restricted ATP.

However, if you just do a regular, non-collegiate 141 program for IR, you can eliminate the 50 hour XC requirement for the IR. It has nothing to do with the restricted ATP.



Look carefully into this. There are FTDs, AATDs, and full-blown sims. Make sure your sim/device is approved for this kind of operation - not all of them are. Even if it is approved, there are still limits as to how many hours you may apply toward the certificate or rating.


That depends largely on you. In practical terms, how often you train and study. 2-3 times a week is ideal - you'll spend less if you do it that way. If you are prepared each lesson and you do a thorough debrief after each one, you might be able to do it under the minimums.
[/QUOTE]
And I guess I could also use a personal loan for part 141 schools? I think I’m fine but I don’t want to step on a land mine of legal trouble. This would waive the requirement for 50xc pic for both IFR and commercial? I would still need to rack 250 hours somehow, although I wouldn’t have to be the PIC.

I’ll certainly check out the sim info again.

I managed to borrow a good amount for my IFR. I would want to go 3-4 times a week but if I work 50 hours a week, that might be too difficult. I would still need to save for commercial. How much I need I’m not sure.

What I’m really picking at is if the 50XC PIC is an IFR requirement needed for the rating, and how many hours are typically flown between starting at private and the end, on average. Is most of the IFR training cross country?

Or in simpler terms, if I have 130 hours now, how many could I possibly have by the time I finish the IFR, assuming 50 hours PIC is needed (and what if it’s not needed?). Sorry for the confusion I may cause; there’s a lot of if’s.

Again, thanks for the responses!

EDIT: Its a BATD.
 
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Der_Meister

Well-Known Member
It's been a few years but I think the 141 TCO I was in charge of for instrument it was 30hrs in airplane and 20 in pur approved AATD. But I cant specifically remember off hand. And I would have to go really dig into the 141 regs to pull it out.
But for part 61...

Aeronautical experience for the instrument-airplane rating. A person who applies for an instrument-airplane rating must have logged:

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, 50 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot in command, of which 10 hours must have been in an airplane; and
(2) Forty hours of actual or simulated instrument time in the areas of operation listed in paragraph (c) of this section, of which 15 hours must have been received from an authorized instructor who holds an instrument-airplane rating, and the instrument time includes:
(i) Three hours of instrument flight training from an authorized instructor in an airplane that is appropriate to the instrument-airplane rating within 2 calendar months before the date of the practical test; and
(ii) Instrument flight training on cross country flight procedures, including one cross country flight in an airplane with an authorized instructor, that is performed under instrument flight rules, when a flight plan has been filed with an air traffic control facility, and that involves—
(A) A flight of 250 nautical miles along airways or by directed routing from an air traffic control facility;
(B) An instrument approach at each airport; and
(C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems.
The 250 IFR XC was normally about 3.5-4.5 hours to get it all done and fly the required approaches and holds.
 

drunkenbeagle

Gang Member
What I’m really picking at is if the 50XC PIC is an IFR requirement needed for the rating, and how many hours are typically flown between starting at private and the end, on average. Is most of the IFR training cross country?

Or in simpler terms, if I have 130 hours now, how many could I possibly have by the time I finish the IFR, assuming 50 hours PIC is needed (and what if it’s not needed?). Sorry for the confusion I may cause; there’s a lot of if’s.
Most of the IFR training does not need to be cross country, but there is nothing preventing it from all being cross country either. Only 15 hours dual received is required (highly likely it will take more though). It can all be logged as PIC. The most expensive requirement for it is generally the 50 PIC/XC and 40 instrument, neither of which needs to be entirely with an instructor. I would personally recommend flying exclusively with an instructor before trying to time build XC or Instrument time.

Realistically, expect about 50 hours give or take for the IFR, half of it with an instructor, half with a safety pilot (preferably instrument rated or an instrument student). An instrument student will be the most likely person to want to split time with you.
 

Crop Duster

E pluribus unum
If you need to take a loan to fly, I'd recommend you spend your borrowed money on a small instrument equipped aircraft. Then go fly the hell out of it.
 
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Der_Meister

Well-Known Member
Having signed off about 30 instrument students which I did all of their training I would say it takes about 40-60hrs of hood time to get the rating... think of it as a PPL all over again as far as time required.
 

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
And I guess I could also use a personal loan for part 141 schools? I think I’m fine but I don’t want to step on a land mine of legal trouble. This would waive the requirement for 50xc pic for both IFR and commercial? I would still need to rack 250 hours somehow, although I wouldn’t have to be the PIC.
I’ll certainly check out the sim info again.

I managed to borrow a good amount for my IFR. I would want to go 3-4 times a week but if I work 50 hours a week, that might be too difficult. I would still need to save for commercial. How much I need I’m not sure.

What I’m really picking at is if the 50XC PIC is an IFR requirement needed for the rating, and how many hours are typically flown between starting at private and the end, on average. Is most of the IFR training cross country?

Or in simpler terms, if I have 130 hours now, how many could I possibly have by the time I finish the IFR, assuming 50 hours PIC is needed (and what if it’s not needed?). Sorry for the confusion I may cause; there’s a lot of if’s.
Ok...you're conflating a number of things here...

1) Schools don't care where your money comes from - just that they get it. Your lender - if it's truly a personal loan - won't care what you DO with the money. If it's a "flight training loan" SPECIFICALLY, they will have terms and conditions. Your banker said you're okay, so you're okay. Is it the same banker who gave you the loan? If not, talk to the people who gave you the loan if you're not sure.

2) If you do your IR and Commercial via a 141 program, you can earn your commercial in 190TT as opposed to 250; the major difference that you don't have to have the 50 hours of XC PIC time in the logbook to take the IR checkride. (Note: my opinion is that you should do some XC flying anyway in the VFR system. You'll learn so much.)

3) To your last question - if you have 130 hours now, and you do your IR in, say 45 hours, then you have 175 hours. At that point, you will need a MINIMUM of 15 more hours to be qualified for the CSEL, assuming you meet all of the other experience requirements.

How much XC PIC time do you already have? (For the certificate, that's XC flights > 50 NM)

Make sense?
 

CarlosSi

New Member
Definitely looking at part 141 schools now. Preferably not too far from home so I can commute. I have never delve into the part 141 section of my FAR AIM. Wasn’t aware of different training requirements (excluding the 1000 hour for restricted ATP). What could I expect from a part 141 school versus part 61 since the hour requirements are reduced? More ground training? Can people work part time during their training?

Ok...you're conflating a number of things here...

1) Schools don't care where your money comes from - just that they get it. Your lender - if it's truly a personal loan - won't care what you DO with the money. If it's a "flight training loan" SPECIFICALLY, they will have terms and conditions. Your banker said you're okay, so you're okay. Is it the same banker who gave you the loan? If not, talk to the people who gave you the loan if you're not sure.

2) If you do your IR and Commercial via a 141 program, you can earn your commercial in 190TT as opposed to 250; the major difference that you don't have to have the 50 hours of XC PIC time in the logbook to take the IR checkride. (Note: my opinion is that you should do some XC flying anyway in the VFR system. You'll learn so much.)

3) To your last question - if you have 130 hours now, and you do your IR in, say 45 hours, then you have 175 hours. At that point, you will need a MINIMUM of 15 more hours to be qualified for the CSEL, assuming you meet all of the other experience requirements.

How much XC PIC time do you already have? (For the certificate, that's XC flights > 50 NM)

Make sense?
Yup, bank said it was fine. My concern was if there was some federal regulation outside the scope of the schools and banks barring it, but yes the bank was fine with it.

Yes cross country is definitely something I’d like to do more regardless. I’ve done a bit with my PPL already and might go again soon.

XC PIC time is 11.3 hours.

Thanks!
 

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Part 141 schools are more rigid in the curriculum with Stage Checks along each phase to ensure you're progressing. If you don't pass a stage check, you don't move on. You also can't train in a Stage past the current stage you're in. You *can* move around within a phase, though.

In Part 141, your XC flights are regimented to approved destinations and routes. You may not deviate from these without special approval. Also, only certain airplanes within a given 141 program are approved for 141. Finally, only a portion of your 141 training is portable to another 141 program.

Part 61, you can do whatever you want to meet the requirements.

EDIT - I'm speaking of the 141 program where I am employed/teach. They may vary somewhat - this is the only 141 program I've worked with. You really ought to be asking some of these questions of the FBO where you intend to train.
 

Der_Meister

Well-Known Member
Part 141 schools are more rigid in the curriculum with Stage Checks along each phase to ensure you're progressing. If you don't pass a stage check, you don't move on. You also can't train in a Stage past the current stage you're in. You *can* move around within a phase, though.

In Part 141, your XC flights are regimented to approved destinations and routes. You may not deviate from these without special approval. Also, only certain airplanes within a given 141 program are approved for 141. Finally, only a portion of your 141 training is portable to another 141 program.
Yikes! I wouldn't want to be at your school. Our TCO was definitely not like that at all.

The FAA allows for lower time requirements in 141 with the use of stage checks a defined training plan.
 

CarlosSi

New Member
Called two schools, one managed to answer some questions, other had to wait.

Technically I would need to rack up 120 hours under part 141 training for the commercial pilot license, but in 120 hours I’ll have at least 250 already. Seems like both are equal in hours, the choice is going to be based on what’s better for me (or ATP , if approved :)).
 

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Yikes! I wouldn't want to be at your school. Our TCO was definitely not like that at all.

The FAA allows for lower time requirements in 141 with the use of stage checks a defined training plan.
What’s different in your program? I’m curious.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

Der_Meister

Well-Known Member
What’s different in your program? I’m curious.
We made sure that our TCO's were very general. Ie times required and required tasks. Other then that it was up to the instructor and student to come up with a plan. Also used G/M/U/I for our grades for each task.

The majority of us went to Embry and understood both the positive and negative about their program. We tried pur best bot to duplicate the bad aspects while still having control. We believed that some of those downfalls actually contributed to a lack of ADM. Because the pilot was not allowed to make the decision because the program didn't allow it. As an instructor I tried to limit my input on the safety of flight and deferred to the student, after their solo. While I had the final say I didnt want to make the decision for them. I did have days where I didnt think it was a good idea to have the flight I would say my input but it was up to my student to decide. I had a few that made the safe decision and I would over ride them ie my CFI students and make them fly anyways; and I had some PPL students that thought they were better then they were. Each learned from it, which is what I as an instructor was there for.
 
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