Below Mins Vis. and Clear of Clouds

[FriendlySkies]

On an IFR plan enroute, my arrival airport reported 1/4 SM and clear of clouds on the ASOS. From 30 miles out, I could see the runways while still reporting 1/4 SM vis and clear. Can you call the airport insight and get the visual? Or do you have to wait until the ASOS reports at least 1/2 SM? Luckily, the vis. came up. I still shot the approach even though I had a visual.

What's legal and what would you do?

Thanks.

[dc3flyer]

If you are Part 91, you can shoot the approach all day no matter what the reported visibility is.


I am not familiar with 121 ops, but Part 135 you cannot begin the instrument approach without having the required visibility. I would assume (which is a bad way to start the sentence) that if you can see the runway from 30 miles out, that you could call the airport in sight and be granted the visual approach and that you would be legal in doing so.

[///AMG]

I'd be damned sure that I REALLY had the field in sight though, in that situation. You wouldn't be the first guy to land on the wrong runway/airport because of less than optimal ambient conditions.

[BajtheJino]

Similar situation-weather machine said 1/4 vis, no clouds, airport in sight way out but we were gonna have to hold. Finally got the guy in the tower to give a tower vis report and that was that.
Up in CRW it used to kill me, a little valley fog would creep up on the machine but the rest of the field would be absolutely clear and they would not give a tower vis. so the field would basically be closed.

[ppragman]

Cancel IFR, and continue in VFR, give a pirep of the field being better than IFR with fog in the vcy, and then land. As long as you're not diving for a hole over the numbers you're not going to get in trouble for this. We get conditions all the time where we get to our destination and the ASOS will be calling 1/4mi or what not, and we'll call FSS, give a pirep of the field being VFR, and land on the VFR runway if there's fog. I've seen fog sitting right over the ASOS before, and nowhere else. Remember, under VFR you only need Flight Visibility.

91.155

From 1.1
Flight Visibility means the average forward horizontal distance, from the cockpit of an aircraft in flight, at which prominent unlighted objects may be seen and identified by night.

If you're 135, and don't have dispatch that's watching you, or keeping track of you, dial up FSS on comm 2 (you do have a comm 2 right) and turn your IFR flightplan into a composite flightplan. Problem solved.

[Orange Anchor]

We went to Charleston Exec a few weeks ago. Wx was *reported* as being 1/8. We got there and it was VFR. We landed and the guys on the ground said it had been 'wacky' for weeks. ???

[minitour]

Visual? You probably won't be cleared for a visual in less than VFR wx (3sm) and you probably won't be getting a contact clearance either. Pt 91? Do the approach and land if you have the flight visibility required by the procedure.

Pt 135? Burn some gas in a hold or go elsewhere.

-mini

[FriendlySkies]

Part 135. Company policy: cannot cancel IFR until on the ground. Good thing the vis. came up for me. Didn't have to sweat it.

[deadstick]

While on the subject of 135, I just had a chat about filing IFR to a VFR-only field or no wx reporting.

For operating on a VFR flight plan, 135.213 says the pilot can make the observation, but if operating IFR, you can't say it's VFR? So use a composite flight plan (can't just cancel IFR) and open the VFR part after descending to the MVA or MEA?

I had it in my head (left overs from another job) that we had to have weather reporting to go in or out of an airport.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by deadstick

While on the subject of 135, I just had a chat about filing IFR to a VFR-only field or no wx reporting.

For operating on a VFR flight plan, 135.213 says the pilot can make the observation,

...or operating without a VFR flight plan but operating under VFR.

but if operating IFR, you can't say it's VFR?

*edit* See below.

So use a composite flight plan (can't just cancel IFR) and open the VFR part after descending to the MVA or MEA?

I had it in my head (left overs from another job) that we had to have weather reporting to go in or out of an airport.

The regulation says "bla bla bla" an IFR operation to an airport without weather reporting (without the appropriate op spec approval). Now the trick becomes "define operation".

Does that mean I can't pick up a clearance and taxi at my departure airport? Does that mean I can't depart? Does it just mean I can't begin an approach (even a visual - since it's an IFR Operation)?

I've taken it to mean I can't depart IFR...so if it were me, I'd just go VFR. Either on a flight plan or not (knowing me and absent any company policy for VFR flight plan - not). Either that, or go IFR to a nearby airport with weather reporting and cancel in the air (we can do that - not prohibited by company policy) and go to the other airport VFR...when within 10 or so miles.

I've done both. I prefer (when I can) to just go VFR the whole way. Seems to save me a lot of headache.

-mini

[ppragman]

Originally Posted by deadstick

While on the subject of 135, I just had a chat about filing IFR to a VFR-only field or no wx reporting.

For operating on a VFR flight plan, 135.213 says the pilot can make the observation, but if operating IFR, you can't say it's VFR? So use a composite flight plan (can't just cancel IFR) and open the VFR part after descending to the MVA or MEA?

I had it in my head (left overs from another job) that we had to have weather reporting to go in or out of an airport.

IFR that's exactly what you need to depart, however under VFR its all on your judgment.

IFR you can depart to an airport without weather forecasting or reporting if you're an elligible on demand operator and its approved in your opspecs.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by ppragman

IFR that's exactly what you need to depart, however under VFR its all on your judgment.

I thought you could use your own observation to depart but after re-reading the actual reg, it appears you are right...that's only for VFR.

Good catch.

-mini

[deadstick]

Originally Posted by ppragman

I
IFR you can depart to an airport without weather forecasting or reporting if you're an elligible on demand operator and its approved in your opspecs.

AND for the other-than-eligible on demand operators...no, right?

[minitour]

Originally Posted by deadstick

AND for the other-than-eligible on demand operators...no, right?

Correct. Unless you get a deviation approved.

-mini

[minitour]

Originally Posted by milleR

Wouldn't a contact approach work if you're authorized for it?

Need 1 mile of reported ground visibility at the airport.

-mini

[milleR]

Originally Posted by minitour

Need 1 mile of reported ground visibility at the airport.

-mini

Yeah, I didn't read that too thoroughly.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by milleR

Yeah, I didn't read that too thoroughly.

It happens.

-mini

[citabriapilot]

Had this happen a lot in the Pac. Northwest flying 135 freight. If the ASOS is reporting below mins and WRONG, it doesn't matter. Still not legal to begin the approach unless there is a certified wx observer on the ground to say that the machine is wrong.

Without the wx observer the thing to do is to call FSS on the radio and have them NOTAM out the ASOS and then land. CYA yo!

[Fly_Unity]

Our chief pilot was stuck at an uncontrolled airport once with visibility below takeoff mins, he said he pointed his jet engine towards the weather station and blasted it with air, a minute later it greater then 6 miles visibility.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by citabriapilot

Without the wx observer the thing to do is to call FSS on the radio and have them NOTAM out the ASOS and then land. CYA yo!

ASOS NOTAM'd out of service wouldn't be legal either. Unless you've eligible on demand (and SP Freight is not - anything single pilot is not) you have to have weather reporting to conduct an IFR operation to an airport.

Originally Posted by Fly_Unity

Our chief pilot was stuck at an uncontrolled airport once with visibility below takeoff mins, he said he pointed his jet engine towards the weather station and blasted it with air, a minute later it greater then 6 miles visibility.

I've heard of guys duct taping flashlights to the RVR so it would come up above mins to depart. Both, quite creative.

-mini

[citabriapilot]

Let me rephrase...

We had several VFR only airports we used, but if the ASOS was reporting IFR (even though it was obviously VFR) we still couldn't land. If machine was NOTAM'd out, the pilot became the "observer" of the weather and could determine it to be VFR.

Also, depending on OpSpecs, we could cancel IFR and proceed VFR if within 10 miles of the airport.

So, yes, you are correct, on IFR rules the broke ASOS NOTAM'd out is still no use, but under VFR it works like a charm.

[Baronman]

Originally Posted by FriendlySkies

On an IFR plan enroute, my arrival airport reported 1/4 SM and clear of clouds on the ASOS. From 30 miles out, I could see the runways while still reporting 1/4 SM vis and clear. Can you call the airport insight and get the visual? Or do you have to wait until the ASOS reports at least 1/2 SM? Luckily, the vis. came up. I still shot the approach even though I had a visual.

What's legal and what would you do?

Thanks.

I wouldn't ask for a visual approach unless the vis was 3 miles. If anything happens during the approach or landing and they look at the ASOS records, they'll know that it wasn't a legal approach.

[deek]

My thought would be what if you canceled IFR 30 miles out and then 5 miles out you fly through a patch of clouds you didn't see or something to that effect. Once you're VFR don't you have to obey all VFR visibility and cloud clearence requirements per the airspace you're in? I'm a student pilot so not sure how you would get around that.

[TUCKnTRUCK]

The last 135 cert i worked on, i developed carpal tunnel syndrome typing out FAA Approved weather observation system. For that op, it was very, explicitly clear, that we had to have required Vis reported by the system, certified and current observer, on field fss. (typed about 50 times) For a vfr operations we were required to have a minimum of an altimeter setting if there was a station on field... the rest could be missing, but not miss reporting.

Tower Visibility was not an option for landing either. I have held over KAUG more than once.. watching the FAA guys work on the ASOS trying to get it up and working for us. sucks

[ppragman]

Originally Posted by Baronman

I wouldn't ask for a visual approach unless the vis was 3 miles. If anything happens during the approach or landing and they look at the ASOS records, they'll know that it wasn't a legal approach.

Not necessarily. What if fog was covering the asos and you slid off the end of the runway. Not the fogs fault if the field was wide open. You'd still need a good lawyer though.