Door warning passing through 80 knots

[BajtheJino]

Why trust a light thats MEL'd? If you did that where I work you'd probably end up with a few days off.
Example: Fuel quantity indicators are MEL'd. Fuel on board has been verified by mtx through gravity indicators. Even a little extra added for safety. Flight departs normally and a few minutes in to cruise the fuel pump run lights come on due to the fuel quantity indicators fluctuating and showing a low fuel situation. You know for a fact you have 5 hours of fuel on board. Do you turn around because faulty fuel indicators show 20 minutes of fuel or do you continue because on paper and in your mind you know you have 5+ hrs?
The wrong decision got a person the rest of the week off.

[minitour]

Apples and oranges. You watched the fuel go into the plane...you know it's there. If you didn't watch it go in, then you don't know it's there. But we'll pretend you do.

In this situation, you don't have any clue if the door is really closed or if the light is just FUBAR. Could be either.

Err on the side of safety.

-mini

[EatSleepFly]

Originally Posted by minitour

In this situation, you don't have any clue if the door is really closed or if the light is just FUBAR. Could be either.

Really? Did you let someone else close it?

If I closed it and latched it properly myself, and visually checked the pins (if I have the ability to see them)- which is all going to be required as a condition for the deferral anyways- then I'm going to believe myself over a light as long as there's no associated calamity when it goes off. I hardly think a 402 is a big enough airplane that you'd not notice a door coming open.

If it was that big of a deal on any particular aircraft type, it wouldn't be deferrable.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by EatSleepFly

Really? Did you let someone else close it?

I think that's the deal...maybe that's just the cargo doors.

Cap'n? What's the deferral process?

(+ Pins fail. Doors pop open. It happens.)

-mini

[EatSleepFly]

Originally Posted by minitour

I think that's the deal...maybe that's just the cargo doors.

Cap'n?

-mini

I would be surprised if the MEL allowed for anyone but the PIC/SIC to close a door with the associated warning MEL'ed.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by EatSleepFly

I would be surprised if the MEL allowed for anyone but the PIC/SIC to close a door with the associated warning MEL'ed.

You know as much about it as I do.

-mini

[dasleben]

Originally Posted by minitour

I think that's the deal...maybe that's just the cargo doors.

Cap'n?

-mini

Our rampers close the doors, but we have a specific procedure for verifying their security. Works pretty well.

-The pilot does a tactile check of the nose baggage doors, which are not covered by the door warning light.

-When the passengers are all loaded, the ramper closes the main cabin door for us. While he's doing that, the pilot observes him rotate the handle all the way to the stop, then do a tactile check of the door. In my case, I watched him secure the door, and was confident that it was secure. That's simply based on my experience in the airplane, however. I watched him push and pull slightly on it after latching it, and from my experience if it wasn't fully latched it would have popped open at that time.

-The ramper signals the pilot that he's about to begin a second walkaround and door check. The pilot responds with another signal, and that second check is commenced.

-Once the ramper is done with his door check, he signals to the pilot that all the doors are secure. The pilot then checks the door warning light, and if it's extinguished, signals to start engines.

There is currently no requirement for a pilot to check the main cabin door after the ramper closes it, even with the MEL in place. It's usually due to CG issues that can occur with 9 passengers onboard; if one of the pilots gets out of his seat, the airplane could potentially tail-over. I really like the idea when CG isn't critical, though.

So, that being said, here's what I did:

I continued the takeoff. Passing through 1000' I engaged the autopilot and pulled out the QRH to see what it said about the problem. The QRH only addresses actual open doors, so it wasn't much help (pretty surprising; they did a nice job with this QRH). I then looked at each door and could tell that nothing was open, and that all the doors, at least from my seat, appeared to be secure. After that I pulled out the logbook and read over the previous writeup about how it'd illuminated in-flight.

My decision was made a bit easier after that because the light actually extinguished as I climbed up a bit higher. When that happened, I continued to my destination, and found the door to be perfectly secure when we got on the ground.

But, what would everyone have done if it didn't go away?

[wrxpilot]

Originally Posted by minitour

(+ Pins fail. Doors pop open. It happens.)

-mini

Agreed. Having flown airplanes involved in fatal accidents due to nose doors opening (Navajos and CJs), I'm extremely paranoid about these doors, and I lock them up even if I know I'll be opening it back up 30 secs later. Still, we all make mistakes and parts fail. Aborting a takeoff role at 80 kts in a cabin class twin on a 7,000 ft runway is not what I would consider a high risk event, not even close. Taking off with a questionable door/locker light is a different matter.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by wrxpilot

Agreed. Having flown airplanes involved in fatal accidents due to nose doors opening (Navajos and CJs), I'm extremely paranoid about these doors, and I lock them up even if I know I'll be opening it back up 30 secs later.

I'm constantly bitching at the FO about that. It's amazing how many times we'll take the pax out, he'll get 'em boarded and start to brief as I do a last minute walk around (checking fuel caps, doors, etc.) and find that a nose baggage door hasn't been key locked.

...or he'll leave 'em open and walk away.

-mini

[wrxpilot]

Originally Posted by minitour

I'm constantly bitching at the FO about that. It's amazing how many times we'll take the pax out, he'll get 'em boarded and start to brief as I do a last minute walk around (checking fuel caps, doors, etc.) and find that a nose baggage door hasn't been key locked.

...or he'll leave 'em open and walk away.

-mini

I don't wreck cars or start bar fights either, lol!

[minitour]

Originally Posted by wrxpilot

I don't wreck cars or start bar fights either, lol!

The bar tab was a different guy. He's "no longer with us".

-mini

[dasleben]

Originally Posted by wrxpilot

Agreed. Having flown airplanes involved in fatal accidents due to nose doors opening (Navajos and CJs), I'm extremely paranoid about these doors, and I lock them up even if I know I'll be opening it back up 30 secs later. Still, we all make mistakes and parts fail. Aborting a takeoff role at 80 kts in a cabin class twin on a 7,000 ft runway is not what I would consider a high risk event, not even close. Taking off with a questionable door/locker light is a different matter.

I just want to make sure it's understood that these cabin doors won't result in a loss of control, or get blown off into an engine. Now a nose door, yeah, we'd have a completely different scenario.

While I agree that it's not normally a high risk event, here's what our QRH says about post-80 knot aborts:

"Heavy braking during an aborted takeoff can result in blown or damaged
tires and/or damage to aircraft structures. Following any abort above 80
KIAS, maintenance personnel must inspect the airplane."

So, either that or go into the air with the possibility that one of your cabin doors may come open? I take it into the air, but that's based on my own experience with the airplane.

[Roger, Roger]

Knowing a little about the airplane and the system, I'd say go.

[Alchemy]

No, don't abort.

This is a classic upgrade sim scenario, and you'll have some 'splainin to do if you abort for that above 80 knots, even with no MEL's.

It won't take long to tell if the aircraft is pressurizing properly, in which case an air return is probably better than a high speed abort. I wouldn't even abort for it below 80 knots if the system was MEL'd, to be honest. Usually that sort of MEL requires extra verification by the ground crews that all doors are closed and secure.

[ppragman]

Originally Posted by Alchemy

No, don't abort.

This is a classic upgrade sim scenario, and you'll have some 'splainin to do if you abort for that above 80 knots, even with no MEL's.

It won't take long to tell if the aircraft is pressurizing properly, in which case an air return is probably better than a high speed abort. I wouldn't even abort for it below 80 knots if the system was MEL'd, to be honest. Usually that sort of MEL requires extra verification by the ground crews that all doors are closed and secure.

That might be a different situation if you were driving an airplane that was known for having a door opening being a fatal encounter. I dunno.

[Alchemy]

Originally Posted by ppragman

That might be a different situation if you were driving an airplane that was known for having a door opening being a fatal encounter. I dunno.

Okay, i did not see that it was a 402 in the OP, that was not brought up until later. Do those really have "captains" or simply pilots anyway?

I've never flown a 402 but it's a pretty terrible design if having a door come unlatched can end the whole show in my opinion. It seems odd that such a plane could get type certification. What happened? Did the door fly off and decapitate the pilot or cut an elevator in half?

Either way, if it was one of those nose cone doors, couldn't you see it flapping around? In that case, okay, maybe in a 402 you should abort. I don't really know. I've only got a few hours of ride-along time in a 421 from about 6 years ago and I remember very little.

[dasleben]

Originally Posted by Alchemy

Okay, i did not see that it was a 402 in the OP, that was not brought up until later. Do those really have "captains" or simply pilots anyway?

I'm not really sure. I have to laugh when someone calls me "captain" (even though we fly two-crew and my badge says "captain"). But I do know that it's an airplane just like any other airplane. Just as valid a scenario as any.

[puddlejumper]

I'm surprised maintenance didn't deactivate the annunciator once it was MEL'd.

I would have continued the takeoff and flown to the destination. That light is inoperative and should be disregarded as a reliable indication of the door latch position.

I agree with what you did Dasleben.

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Originally Posted by puddlejumper

I'm surprised maintenance didn't deactivate the annunciator once it was MEL'd.

There is no M procedure for an MEL'd Door Warning Light in the 402.

If it opens, just pull the chu...
Oh wait

[puddlejumper]

The beauty of having an MEL. I always wind up falling back to 91.213 where it goes on about placarding, removing, deactivating... Why would a pilot want an indicator that has been proven to be faulty?

All in the interest of improved dispatchabilty, but it does leave it up to the pilot to interpret known bad indications.

Travis, what would you have done?

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Originally Posted by puddlejumper

Travis, what would you have done?

Pulled the chu...

DAMNIT, there I go again.

Having no time in a 402, I can't say. Sounds as if the AFM is pretty adamant about not aborting above 80 knots unless the aircraft is unflyable. I'd say it would be pretty noticeable if the door was actually ajar, in both tactile and audible senses

We had them in the Lear occasionally for the aft door, albeit in cruise. It would blink for about 2 seconds, set off the MWS, and then go away. We knew it was a bad micro-switch somewhere on the door assembly, and were finally able to track it down in the shop.

If I as the captain was the one doing the door closing and was damn sure it was closed and latched, I would have gone flying.

[rjmore]

From the description of the aircraft and the MEL procedure I would be comfortable going in that situation. It would be nice if the indicating system were deactivated as well. However, I don't think you could fault a guy for aborting either. At 80 knots you are not going to damage anything with that much runway available.

Many companies use 80 knots as a transition from the low speed to high speed regime. If it happens AT 80 you could go either way. In my present aircraft if I got a door warning at 80 knots I'm stopping. A cabin door wouldn't be an issue but a cargo door is another story. I'm not going to pull up the lower EICAS to determine which one either. Stop and sort it out. That said, I'm not sure if we have an MEL for the indicating system or not since I don't have it in front of me. I'll snoop around and see.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by rjmore

From the description of the aircraft and the MEL procedure I would be comfortable going in that situation. It would be nice if the indicating system were deactivated as well. However, I don't think you could fault a guy for aborting either. At 80 knots you are not going to damage anything with that much runway available.

Many companies use 80 knots as a transition from the low speed to high speed regime. If it happens AT 80 you could go either way. In my present aircraft if I got a door warning at 80 knots I'm stopping. A cabin door wouldn't be an issue but a cargo door is another story. I'm not going to pull up the lower EICAS to determine which one either. Stop and sort it out. That said, I'm not sure if we have an MEL for the indicating system or not since I don't have it in front of me. I'll snoop around and see.

What type?

-mini

[rjmore]

Originally Posted by minitour

What type?

-mini

747-400

[Polar742]

Originally Posted by rjmore

From the description of the aircraft and the MEL procedure I would be comfortable going in that situation. It would be nice if the indicating system were deactivated as well. However, I don't think you could fault a guy for aborting either. At 80 knots you are not going to damage anything with that much runway available.

Many companies use 80 knots as a transition from the low speed to high speed regime. If it happens AT 80 you could go either way. In my present aircraft if I got a door warning at 80 knots I'm stopping. A cabin door wouldn't be an issue but a cargo door is another story. I'm not going to pull up the lower EICAS to determine which one either. Stop and sort it out. That said, I'm not sure if we have an MEL for the indicating system or not since I don't have it in front of me. I'll snoop around and see.

A certain unnamed American operator of the same type allows for the Door Indication (for all the doors) to be MEL'd. The EICAS message may or may not be displayed.