Cleared to Land?

FlyChicaga · August 11th, 2009, 01:50

Scenario: You are arriving in an MD-11 at Newark-Liberty International Airport, landing on runway 22L. At the same time, aircraft are departing off runway 22R, flying a departure that calls for an immediate turn to the left heading 190, across the extended centerline for your landing runway.

When you briefed the approach, you briefed the instrument missed approach procedure, which calls for a climb and turn to the right five degrees. Although the weather is VMC, you were cleared for an ILS approach.

When you checked on with tower (approximately 12 miles out), the frequency was extremely busy. Helicopter traffic was heard crossing the approach end of the main runways in use, and another aircraft was getting S-turns for spacing while landing on an intersecting runway to the one you are landing on. You attempt to check on twice, then wait to see if tower responds to you. They finally ask you to "standby," and issue another instruction to the airplane landing on the crossing runway.

At about three miles out, you are able to say, "Tower is Airline 123 cleared to land?" They do not answer, but rather say, "Fedex 25 heavy, winds are 290 at 9, cleared for takeoff runway 22R." After FedEx responds, tower says, "Airline 123, affirmative, caution wake turbulence for the departing heavy A-300." Before you can respond, tower issues an instruction to another aircraft to taxi into position and hold on runway 22R.

At this point, you must make a decision. Do you assume the "affirmative" was in fact a landing clearance (tower never actually said, "cleared to land")? Or do you go-around, possibly causing a traffic conflict with a) the departing A-300, b) unknown helicopter traffic that you cannot see on TCAS, or c) the aircraft landing on the intersecting runway that is S-turning and landing with a 9 knot tailwind?

Disclaimer: This did not happen to me, nor did it happen at my company.

minitour · August 11th, 2009, 02:10

You asked a specific question: "Tower, is airline 123 cleared to land?"

You were given an answer: "Airline 123, affirmative..." plus you were given an advisory for the wake on the heavy on the parallel.

Sounds like Miller time.

-mini

dasleben · August 11th, 2009, 13:57

Yeah, I'm landing and don't think twice about it.

BajtheJino · August 11th, 2009, 17:55

Land. Go home.

blaise723 · August 12th, 2009, 01:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by minitour

You asked a specific question: "Tower, is airline 123 cleared to land?"

You were given an answer: "Airline 123, affirmative..." plus you were given an advisory for the wake on the heavy on the parallel.

Land.

CaptainChris87 · August 12th, 2009, 06:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by minitour

You asked a specific question: "Tower, is airline 123 cleared to land?"

You were given an answer: "Airline 123, affirmative..." plus you were given an advisory for the wake on the heavy on the parallel.

Sounds like Miller time.

-mini

Bingo.

Trip7 · August 12th, 2009, 12:37

LAND

Firebird2XC · August 12th, 2009, 21:28

I had a Skipper bring up this concept once.

What if nobody ever shuts up on frequency and you never get the clearance, or you call Tower and are never acknowledged?

Lost Comm procedures would apply then, no? No transmission, either sent or received, breaks the commo chain.

Land the bastich. Going around is going to totally screw everybody's plan.

Roger, Roger · August 12th, 2009, 21:49

In this particular situation, go ahead and land. You asked if you were cleared to land, and they replied with "affirmative".

Flyvne · August 14th, 2009, 00:47

Never landed there, but if it is anything like ORD.....LAND!!! Get out of there hair, and land..... as long as you know it is safe ....

As a new FO I once forgot to ask for clearance to land at ORD. At 100 feet I asked if we cleared to land and they told me they cleared me to land at the marker. They were lying for the recorders and I realized, they want you on the ground and out of the .

FlyChicaga · August 14th, 2009, 01:05

Awesome. Follow up question: Would you file an ASAP/ASRS form?

CaptainChris87 · August 14th, 2009, 04:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyChicaga

Awesome. Follow up question: Would you file an ASAP/ASRS form?

No safety issue or problems could've occurred. Prob not, it does not hurt. Just more paperwork for the Interns to file

SteveC · August 14th, 2009, 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainChris87

No safety issue or problems could've occurred.

Disagree. There is still the potential that miscommunication took place in that exchange, which could result in a BIG safety issue.

minitour · August 14th, 2009, 12:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyChicaga

Awesome. Follow up question: Would you file an ASAP/ASRS form?

Yes. I don't believe in only filing a NASA form when I need the "get out of jail" protection (lack of a better term). The tower probably should/could have clarified with "Airline 123, 22L cleared to land break...." if he was busy and that's what I'd put in the report. Maybe it would help to improve the system. Though you were given a specific answer to a specific question, there could still be some confusion.

-mini

August 11th, 2009, 01:50	#1
FlyChicaga Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 5,539	Cleared to Land? Scenario: You are arriving in an MD-11 at Newark-Liberty International Airport, landing on runway 22L. At the same time, aircraft are departing off runway 22R, flying a departure that calls for an immediate turn to the left heading 190, across the extended centerline for your landing runway. When you briefed the approach, you briefed the instrument missed approach procedure, which calls for a climb and turn to the right five degrees. Although the weather is VMC, you were cleared for an ILS approach. When you checked on with tower (approximately 12 miles out), the frequency was extremely busy. Helicopter traffic was heard crossing the approach end of the main runways in use, and another aircraft was getting S-turns for spacing while landing on an intersecting runway to the one you are landing on. You attempt to check on twice, then wait to see if tower responds to you. They finally ask you to "standby," and issue another instruction to the airplane landing on the crossing runway. At about three miles out, you are able to say, "Tower is Airline 123 cleared to land?" They do not answer, but rather say, "Fedex 25 heavy, winds are 290 at 9, cleared for takeoff runway 22R." After FedEx responds, tower says, "Airline 123, affirmative, caution wake turbulence for the departing heavy A-300." Before you can respond, tower issues an instruction to another aircraft to taxi into position and hold on runway 22R. At this point, you must make a decision. Do you assume the "affirmative" was in fact a landing clearance (tower never actually said, "cleared to land")? Or do you go-around, possibly causing a traffic conflict with a) the departing A-300, b) unknown helicopter traffic that you cannot see on TCAS, or c) the aircraft landing on the intersecting runway that is S-turning and landing with a 9 knot tailwind? Disclaimer: This did not happen to me, nor did it happen at my company. __________________ i am matt's jetcareers signature

August 11th, 2009, 02:10	#2
minitour Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: . Posts: 4,235	Re: Cleared to Land? You asked a specific question: "Tower, is airline 123 cleared to land?" You were given an answer: "Airline 123, affirmative..." plus you were given an advisory for the wake on the heavy on the parallel. Sounds like Miller time. -mini __________________ McDonalds won't have me. AT&T Wireless won't acknowledge my resume. ...there has to be something out there for me. No, I'm not joking.

August 11th, 2009, 13:57	#3
dasleben Junior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: BOS Posts: 183	Re: Cleared to Land? Yeah, I'm landing and don't think twice about it.

August 11th, 2009, 17:55	#4
BajtheJino Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: On the waterfront Posts: 2,656	Re: Cleared to Land? Land. Go home. __________________ A wise man once said: The difference between you and the guy running the tea cups at the county fair is that what you do requires a higher degree of training and in some cases a more involved costume.

August 12th, 2009, 12:37	#7
Trip7 Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: ATL Posts: 2,811	Re: Cleared to Land? LAND __________________ Comm-ASEL, MEL, Inst. CFI, CFII, MEI TT: 1300 CRJ700/900 FO B.S. Aviation Management-Business Minor Southeastern Oklahoma State University Cum Laude Graduate

August 12th, 2009, 21:28	#8
Firebird2XC Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: *ATTENDING NetworkJC '09 Posts: 4,374	Re: Cleared to Land? I had a Skipper bring up this concept once. What if nobody ever shuts up on frequency and you never get the clearance, or you call Tower and are never acknowledged? Lost Comm procedures would apply then, no? No transmission, either sent or received, breaks the commo chain. Land the bastich. Going around is going to totally screw everybody's plan. __________________ www.remember3407project.org 'Rapid Upgrade' is a trap. http://forums.jetcareers.com/airline...ur-career.html

August 12th, 2009, 21:49	#9
Roger, Roger Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Lone Star Executive Posts: 2,648	Re: Cleared to Land? In this particular situation, go ahead and land. You asked if you were cleared to land, and they replied with "affirmative". __________________ Current A&P. Occasional CFI. Still wannabe Freight Dog.

August 14th, 2009, 00:47	#10
Flyvne Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: St. Louis Posts: 68	Re: Cleared to Land? Never landed there, but if it is anything like ORD.....LAND!!! Get out of there hair, and land..... as long as you know it is safe .... As a new FO I once forgot to ask for clearance to land at ORD. At 100 feet I asked if we cleared to land and they told me they cleared me to land at the marker. They were lying for the recorders and I realized, they want you on the ground and out of the .

August 14th, 2009, 01:05	#11
FlyChicaga Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 5,539	Re: Cleared to Land? Awesome. Follow up question: Would you file an ASAP/ASRS form? __________________ i am matt's jetcareers signature

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