You're on the approach when there's a deer!

Doug Taylor · August 5th, 2009, 16:23

Ok, you're conducting a non-precision approach, just after you cross the missed approach point, there's "OMG! A deer on the runway!"

The field is IFR.

What do you do and why?

minitour · August 5th, 2009, 16:27

Not enough info.

Can I get back up to circling MDA safely (maintaining visual contact with the airport/staying out of the clouds)?

How many motors are working? How many did I start with? How much go-juice is left? Am I on fire? Any emergency situation?

-mini

Doug Taylor · August 5th, 2009, 16:29

I dunno, but say it's 600' ceilings with 1 mile visibility.

ctab5060X · August 5th, 2009, 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by minitour

Not enough info.

You got to give more details. That is where the devil hides they say.

How much fuel is remaining? Since it is IFR... you probably have an alternate (thinking fuel here), or is this your alternate? Anything wrong with the airplane? What kind of IFR? Is is low ceilings and visibility due to a cloud layer or is it precipitation/convective activity that is causing it?

Details... must know details!

Doug Taylor · August 5th, 2009, 16:56

You sufficient fuel reserves and plenty of smash for another approach and possible diversion.

Sorry for the cat and mouse game, but what I'm really looking for is what your next step is with the aircraft.

Hint: Missed approach? Rejected landing?

Remember, you're past the missed approach point. What factors are you looking at to determine HOW you fly away from the runway?

minitour · August 5th, 2009, 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

I dunno, but say it's 600' ceilings with 1 mile visibility.

Well...that could be above circling minimums or below straight in minimums at the right airport.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Sorry for the cat and mouse game, but what I'm really looking for is what your next step is with the aircraft.

Hint: Missed approach? Rejected landing?

Need more information. If I can't circle for whatever reason, then I'd have to execute the missed approach procedure.

Quote:

Remember, you're past the missed approach point. What factors are you looking at to determine HOW you fly away from the runway?

Max power, flaps to approach, positive rate gear up, climb at Vref for 5 minutes (mct limitation). Follow the procedure. Once at a safe altitude, accelerate to Vapp + and suck up the flaps and continue to climb/accelerate.

Not much you can do at that point. If we've got an emergency, that's a different scenario that the deer may not walk away from.

Factors:
Aircraft condition, fuel status, towered airport or not, emergency or not, terrain, weather...you know, "stuff". Plus all of the other factors that we all need to consider when conducting any flight.

-mini

Doug Taylor · August 5th, 2009, 17:07

Can you use circling minimums from a rejected landing? Are you still on the instrument approach?

minitour · August 5th, 2009, 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Can you use circling minimums from a rejected landing? Are you still on the instrument approach?

If I absolutely needed to and I could get a clearance for it (assuming an operating tower I'd have to state my intentions with them), why not?

If it's a non-towered field, the airspace is mine once I'm cleared for the approach. No one else is going in or out IFR and I'm going to do what I need to in order to complete the flight safely.

If that means hopping up to circling MDA, making a trip around the patch configured for a circle and then landing from the circle, then that's fine.

-mini

LineUpAndWait · August 5th, 2009, 17:59

I'm thinking that if you are past the MAP and probably lower than MDA you could be taking your chances if you flew the Missed Approach Procedure. You're basically taking off again into the clouds. What if the runway has an Obstacle DP that says to fly runway heading up to 1200' before turning and the Missed Approach for that same runway says to make a climbing left turn to 3000'. The TERPS people are figuring that you can make it to 3000 and not hit anything because you are starting at the Missed Approach Point and you're already at, say, 1000' (if that was the MDA). The TERPS guys aren't going to guarantee anything if you're starting at 500' and halfway down the runway, but you know you could easily climb to 1200' and then turn if you follow the DP. Could be a good reason to brief the DP along with the Missed I guess, but who does that?

BajtheJino · August 5th, 2009, 18:07

What size plane am I in?
I land, hit the deer and laugh about it later.
Its a great story.

killbilly · August 5th, 2009, 18:30

This might be a really dumb statement...but...how long is the runway?

Like, can you land past it?

If I'm in a 172 coming in to 17R/35L at AUS, this is potentially a non-issue because the frakkin' runway is more than two miles long....

dc3flyer · August 5th, 2009, 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Can you use circling minimums from a rejected landing? Are you still on the instrument approach?

Sounds to me like you're VFR at this point.... you descended below the minimum altitude on the approach, and you have the runway in sight (or else you wouldn't have seen the deer). But I guess you said you "just crossed the MAP, so in your scenario you may not have descended below the minimums.

I guess it would depend on the airport and my gut instincts. If I'm in Aspen, we may be having deer meat in the fridge. If I'm in Omaha, I'd probably attempt a go around (depending on the deer).

dasleben · August 5th, 2009, 18:47

Something tells me TERPS takes into account a balked landing from below DA/MDA for their missed approach procedures.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, though.

falconvalley · August 5th, 2009, 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Can you use circling minimums from a rejected landing? Are you still on the instrument approach?

Yes, you can. It's a matter of determining which way to turn.

If I can determine it's safe to circle I would buzz the deer and climb to circling mins and circle back around. At AirNet we would time legs during a rejected "circle".

Quote:

Originally Posted by LineUpAndWait

I'm thinking that if you are past the MAP and probably lower than MDA you could be taking your chances if you flew the Missed Approach Procedure. You're basically taking off again into the clouds. What if the runway has an Obstacle DP that says to fly runway heading up to 1200' before turning and the Missed Approach for that same runway says to make a climbing left turn to 3000'. The TERPS people are figuring that you can make it to 3000 and not hit anything because you are starting at the Missed Approach Point and you're already at, say, 1000' (if that was the MDA). The TERPS guys aren't going to guarantee anything if you're starting at 500' and halfway down the runway, but you know you could easily climb to 1200' and then turn if you follow the DP. Could be a good reason to brief the DP along with the Missed I guess, but who does that?

I believe most missed procedures are written with a rejected landing in mind. When you reject below MDA, you simply climb on runway heading (unless otherwise specified) to MDA and re-intercept the prodecure guidance. Sometimes it's as simple as maintaining a localizer. Sometimes you have to make a turn and intercept the missed approach course. Different MAP = different scenario. I've gotten this question at every airline interview I've had.

For example, standard MAP guidance says during a rejected landing while circling, you make a climbing turn towards the landing runway.

aloft · August 5th, 2009, 23:37

Land, aim for the deer, and alert catering.

ChasenSFO · August 6th, 2009, 00:40

Turn off the landing light, no light=no deer in the headlights.

Wheres my cookie?

ctab5060X · August 6th, 2009, 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChasenSFO

Turn off the landing light, no light=no deer in the headlights.

Wheres my cookie?

You're cookie is coming from the back of the plane. That is if the cookie is loose and you decelerate enough from hitting the deer that it comes up front.

minitour · August 6th, 2009, 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctab5060X

You're cookie is coming from the back of the plane. That is if the cookie is loose and you decelerate enough from hitting the deer that it comes up front.

Maybe it's a turboprop. I'm sure someone has them/can post them...there are pics floating around of a King Air and a deer encounter. It wasn't good for either party, but the deer definitely got the short end of the stick.

-mini

ctab5060X · August 6th, 2009, 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by minitour

Maybe it's a turboprop. I'm sure someone has them/can post them...there are pics floating around of a King Air and a deer encounter. It wasn't good for either party, but the deer definitely got the short end of the stick.

-mini

Guessing no roast, but plenty of ground venison...

minitour · August 6th, 2009, 00:46

nom nom nom

-mini

Roger, Roger · August 6th, 2009, 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by minitour

Maybe it's a turboprop. I'm sure someone has them/can post them...there are pics floating around of a King Air and a deer encounter. It wasn't good for either party, but the deer definitely got the short end of the stick.

-mini

I think I have those on my hard drive...

Cessnaflyer · August 6th, 2009, 01:03

Directly from Ch.5 of the instrument flying procedures handbook:

Quote:

Once descent below the DA, DH, or MDA is begun, a
missed approach must be executed if the required visibility
is lost or the runway environment is no longer
visible, unless the loss of sight of the runway is a result
of normal banking of the aircraft during a circling
approach. A missed approach procedure is also
required upon the execution of a rejected landing for
any reason, such as men and equipment or animals on
the runway, or if the approach becomes unstabilized
and a normal landing cannot be performed. After the
MAP in the visual segment of a nonprecision approach
there may be hazards when executing a missed
approach below the MDA. Any missed approach after a
DA, DH, or MAP below the DA, DH, or MDA involves
additional risk until established on the published
missed approach procedure course and altitude.

killbilly · August 6th, 2009, 01:05

Wait....wait...I got it...

You pull the chute.

What'd I win?

Jbroz04 · August 6th, 2009, 01:22

JHugz may take you out on a date for a comment like that hahaha

mshunter · August 6th, 2009, 01:34

Aim for the dear, that way I'll miss it. And if I do hit it, at least my family will have something to eat for a few weeks.

It depends on where the dear is (distance down the runway), CIG's/etc don't matter otherwise. I'd go missed if I wasn't able to land (i.e. circle back around etc.). Safety is paramount. If I were low on fuel, and didn't have a choice but to land, well, sorry mr./ms. dear, but I am gonna try and hit you with a part of the plane that will a) take the hit well, and plow through you or b) hit you with a part of the plane that you will go right through, and not affect the stuff inside too much. Anyone ever seen the video of a tigermoth hitting a cow?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCk4ywD_yyM

A dear would be no sweat

August 5th, 2009, 16:23	#1
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 50,364 Blog Entries: 1	You're on the approach when there's a deer! Ok, you're conducting a non-precision approach, just after you cross the missed approach point, there's "OMG! A deer on the runway!" The field is IFR. What do you do and why? __________________ Doug Taylor PPL-SEL PA-38 Typed

August 5th, 2009, 16:27	#2
minitour Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: . Posts: 4,232	Re: You're on the approach when there's a deer! Not enough info. Can I get back up to circling MDA safely (maintaining visual contact with the airport/staying out of the clouds)? How many motors are working? How many did I start with? How much go-juice is left? Am I on fire? Any emergency situation? -mini __________________ McDonalds won't have me. AT&T Wireless won't acknowledge my resume. ...there has to be something out there for me. No, I'm not joking.

August 5th, 2009, 16:29	#3
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 50,364 Blog Entries: 1	Re: You're on the approach when there's a deer! I dunno, but say it's 600' ceilings with 1 mile visibility. __________________ Doug Taylor PPL-SEL PA-38 Typed

August 5th, 2009, 16:56	#5
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 50,364 Blog Entries: 1	Re: You're on the approach when there's a deer! You sufficient fuel reserves and plenty of smash for another approach and possible diversion. Sorry for the cat and mouse game, but what I'm really looking for is what your next step is with the aircraft. Hint: Missed approach? Rejected landing? Remember, you're past the missed approach point. What factors are you looking at to determine HOW you fly away from the runway? __________________ Doug Taylor PPL-SEL PA-38 Typed

August 5th, 2009, 17:07	#7
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 50,364 Blog Entries: 1	Re: You're on the approach when there's a deer! Can you use circling minimums from a rejected landing? Are you still on the instrument approach? __________________ Doug Taylor PPL-SEL PA-38 Typed

August 5th, 2009, 17:59	#9
LineUpAndWait Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Northeast Posts: 175	Re: You're on the approach when there's a deer! I'm thinking that if you are past the MAP and probably lower than MDA you could be taking your chances if you flew the Missed Approach Procedure. You're basically taking off again into the clouds. What if the runway has an Obstacle DP that says to fly runway heading up to 1200' before turning and the Missed Approach for that same runway says to make a climbing left turn to 3000'. The TERPS people are figuring that you can make it to 3000 and not hit anything because you are starting at the Missed Approach Point and you're already at, say, 1000' (if that was the MDA). The TERPS guys aren't going to guarantee anything if you're starting at 500' and halfway down the runway, but you know you could easily climb to 1200' and then turn if you follow the DP. Could be a good reason to brief the DP along with the Missed I guess, but who does that?

August 5th, 2009, 18:07	#10
BajtheJino Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: On the waterfront Posts: 2,656	Re: You're on the approach when there's a deer! What size plane am I in? I land, hit the deer and laugh about it later. Its a great story. __________________ A wise man once said: The difference between you and the guy running the tea cups at the county fair is that what you do requires a higher degree of training and in some cases a more involved costume.

August 5th, 2009, 18:30	#11
killbilly Old Skool Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 4,442 Blog Entries: 1	Re: You're on the approach when there's a deer! This might be a really dumb statement...but...how long is the runway? Like, can you land past it? If I'm in a 172 coming in to 17R/35L at AUS, this is potentially a non-issue because the frakkin' runway is more than two miles long.... __________________ "Tell the truth/explain to me/how you got this need for speed/she laughed and said it might just be the next best thing to love." David Wilcox, "Eye Of The Hurricane"

August 5th, 2009, 18:47	#13
dasleben Junior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: BOS Posts: 183	Re: You're on the approach when there's a deer! Something tells me TERPS takes into account a balked landing from below DA/MDA for their missed approach procedures. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, though.

August 5th, 2009, 23:37	#15
aloft Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: SL,UT Posts: 8,165	Re: You're on the approach when there's a deer! Land, aim for the deer, and alert catering. __________________ ________\|________ -------(o)- ------° ° ° "You can totally say ass on here!" -- Doug Taylor

August 6th, 2009, 00:40	#16
ChasenSFO Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: SFO Posts: 1,329	Re: You're on the approach when there's a deer! Turn off the landing light, no light=no deer in the headlights. Wheres my cookie? __________________ The term "First Officer" was invented because Les Abend is never second.

August 6th, 2009, 00:46	#20
minitour Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: . Posts: 4,232	Re: You're on the approach when there's a deer! nom nom nom -mini __________________ McDonalds won't have me. AT&T Wireless won't acknowledge my resume. ...there has to be something out there for me. No, I'm not joking.

August 6th, 2009, 01:05	#23
killbilly Old Skool Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 4,442 Blog Entries: 1	Re: You're on the approach when there's a deer! Wait....wait...I got it... You pull the chute. What'd I win? __________________ "Tell the truth/explain to me/how you got this need for speed/she laughed and said it might just be the next best thing to love." David Wilcox, "Eye Of The Hurricane"

August 6th, 2009, 01:22	#24
Jbroz04 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Vermilion Posts: 608	Re: You're on the approach when there's a deer! JHugz may take you out on a date for a comment like that hahaha __________________ The last thing every pilot does after a gear up landing is to move the gear selector to down.

August 6th, 2009, 01:34	#25
mshunter Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Southern CA Posts: 1,168	Re: You're on the approach when there's a deer! Aim for the dear, that way I'll miss it. And if I do hit it, at least my family will have something to eat for a few weeks. It depends on where the dear is (distance down the runway), CIG's/etc don't matter otherwise. I'd go missed if I wasn't able to land (i.e. circle back around etc.). Safety is paramount. If I were low on fuel, and didn't have a choice but to land, well, sorry mr./ms. dear, but I am gonna try and hit you with a part of the plane that will a) take the hit well, and plow through you or b) hit you with a part of the plane that you will go right through, and not affect the stuff inside too much. Anyone ever seen the video of a tigermoth hitting a cow? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCk4ywD_yyM A dear would be no sweat __________________ Airspeed is life, Altitude is Life Insurance. Last edited by mshunter; August 6th, 2009 at 01:35. Reason: dang spelling!

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode