You're on the approach when there's a deer! - Page 2

dasleben · August 6th, 2009, 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by mshunter

Aim for the dear, that way I'll miss it. And if I do hit it, at least my family will have something to eat for a few weeks.

It depends on where the dear is (distance down the runway), CIG's/etc don't matter otherwise. I'd go missed if I wasn't able to land (i.e. circle back around etc.). Safety is paramount. If I were low on fuel, and didn't have a choice but to land, well, sorry mr./ms. dear, but I am gonna try and hit you with a part of the plane that will a) take the hit well, and plow through you or b) hit you with a part of the plane that you will go right through, and not affect the stuff inside too much. Anyone ever seen the video of a tigermoth hitting a cow?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCk4ywD_yyM

A dear would be no sweat

I don't think I've ever seen someone misspell "deer" so much in my life. Unless, of course, you're talking about your wife/girlfriend. In that case, carry on.

Doug Taylor · August 6th, 2009, 01:46

"Dear's on the runway! Oh hon, get off the tarmac and fetch me a red koolaid!"

FlyChicaga · August 6th, 2009, 02:57

Doug Taylor · August 6th, 2009, 02:59

Mmm.... Ven-i-son....

E_Dawg · August 6th, 2009, 05:51

Go missed. Hitting a deer would not be fun... Perhaps additional risk from going missed past the MAP but hitting a deer would be additional risk too. A transport aircraft is going to climb better than the lowest common denominator the TERPS were designed for. Just my opinion.

deadstick · August 6th, 2009, 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Ok, you're conducting a non-precision approach, just after you cross the missed approach point, there's "OMG! A deer on the runway!"

The field is IFR.

What do you do and why?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aloft

Land, aim for the deer, and alert catering.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChasenSFO

Wheres my cookie?

I think Doug is having flashbacks to his Skyway days.

killbilly · August 6th, 2009, 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jbroz04

JHugz may take you out on a date for a comment like that hahaha

You're on to me....

Milesar · August 6th, 2009, 13:57

That poor deer has a leash stuck around its neck.

I think executing the missed would be a good choice as long as you are familiar with the procedures (reviewed in the briefing) and know that there are no major obstacles that might be a factor after passing the MAP.

minitour · August 6th, 2009, 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by E_Dawg

Go missed. Hitting a deer would not be fun... Perhaps additional risk from going missed past the MAP but hitting a deer would be additional risk too. A transport aircraft is going to climb better than the lowest common denominator the TERPS were designed for. Just my opinion.

Whoops. You just tossed a motor on the miss below/beyond the MAP at ASE.

Have fun with that.

-mini

gne in prog · August 6th, 2009, 15:23

flat terrain- missed. aspen- kill the deer.

i've hit a deer before in a navajo, it wasn't as much fun as it seems.

Doug Taylor · August 6th, 2009, 15:25

So would we fly the published missed approach or the obstacle departure procedure? And why or why not?

400A · August 6th, 2009, 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

So would we fly the published missed approach or the obstacle departure procedure? And why or why not?

Do you routinely brief the ODP in addition to the approach?

minitour · August 6th, 2009, 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by 400A

Do you routinely brief the ODP in addition to the approach?

Yeah. Don't you? You're dangerous!

Quote:

Originally Posted by gne in prog

flat terrain- missed. aspen- kill the deer.

The nice thing about ASE is the high mins. You could, if vis was good enough for you to see the rocks, do 360s giving tower time to shoo Bambi away. Failing that...deer kebobs for all!

-mini

FlyChicaga · August 6th, 2009, 16:03

Beyond the MAP (and below MDA), I would consider it a "rejected landing," not a missed approach. Therefore, should we have any special departure procedures/single-engine departure procedures, I would follow that. In our briefings for an approach, we do brief the special departure procedure.

If there was no special departure procedure, I would climb to MDA, then initiate the missed approach procedure, as appropriate.

I'll add to the complexity of this situation, however. What would you do if your missed approach point was a VOR located at midfield, and you were rejecting the landing for a deer on the runway?

Let's say there isn't a deer on the runway. Instead, it's a contaminated (7000 x 100 ft) runway with 1/2 inch of wet snow, braking action reported fair to poor by a vehicle. You float 3500 feet down the runway, and you elect to go-around (at least I hope so!). Do you fly the missed approach procedure? If so, when do you commence it?

400A · August 6th, 2009, 16:08

Really? You guys brief the ODP off of the back of the 10-9 chart for the runway you are shooting the approach to?

minitour · August 6th, 2009, 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by 400A

Really? You guys brief the ODP off of the back of the 10-9 chart for the runway you are shooting the approach to?

I'm just as

...I didn't know anyone that did that. Hell, we barely look at the 10-9 long enough to take a guess at which way to turn for the FBO after seeing if we have enough room to land.

-mini

400A · August 6th, 2009, 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by minitour

I'm just as

...I didn't know anyone that did that. Hell, we barely look at the 10-9 long enough to take a guess at which way to turn for the FBO after seeing if we have enough room to land.

-mini

I will be the last guy to critique another outfits procedures, but it just seems like way too much information with too much possibility for conflicting information (ie, the missed is a climbing left turn to 3200 feet, the ODP is a straight ahead climb to 4000 feet, etc).

These hypothetical WWYD situations are just to get you thinking, not meant to be some catalyst that drastically changes SOPs.

FlyChicaga · August 6th, 2009, 16:27

Not the 10-9 chart. We do use the 10-9 chart to brief:

Expected turnoff
Runway length/width
Hotspots for expected taxi route

For departures, we have 10-7 charts which are tailored to our aircraft. They are procedures developed by Ops Engineering, which allow us terrain clearance in the event of an engine failure on takeoff. At some airports, we have an ALL engines departure procedure. Reno was one off the top of my head. The procedures can look similar to the normal DP, or look completely different. If I can find the Reno charts, I'll see if I can scan them. It was a major PITA!

minitour · August 6th, 2009, 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by 400A

I will be the last guy to critique another outfits procedures, but it just seems like way too much information with too much possibility for conflicting information (ie, the missed is a climbing left turn to 3200 feet, the ODP is a straight ahead climb to 4000 feet, etc).

These hypothetical WWYD situations are just to get you thinking, not meant to be some catalyst that drastically changes SOPs.

Agreed on everything.

-mini

E_Dawg · August 6th, 2009, 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by minitour

Whoops. You just tossed a motor on the miss below/beyond the MAP at ASE.

Have fun with that.

-mini

Yeah I figured someone would call me on that. Obviously if you're at (insert mountainous airport) you'd adjust your mentality. But you could play hypotheticals all day long. What if you decide to continue the landing and it's not just Bambi out there but Bambi's extended family. What if a meteor hits you in the flare, what then.

minitour · August 6th, 2009, 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by E_Dawg

...you could play hypotheticals all day long.

Which is why blanket statements like...

Quote:

Originally Posted by E_Dawg

A transport aircraft is going to climb better than the lowest common denominator the TERPS were designed for.

can kill ya.

Normally, yeah you'll probably make it. Toss in a hot day, maybe the flaps stick down or the gear won't suck up or you blow an engine or you had the fish....

You get the idea.

-mini

E_Dawg · August 6th, 2009, 17:25

I'd rather safely take it around the patch again than be guaranteed to have an accident by hitting a deer at 120mph. Even with the flaps and gear STUCK down the plane will climb.

Yes I suppose if the flaps AND gear AND an engine simultaneously fail at the worst possible time when you go missed... then yes I suppose that could cause problems. A meteor hitting you could also do a lot of damage. Or your wings could fall off. Point being the chances of that are astronomical. I'll take an astronomical chance over a 100% chance of hitting something. Again this is just what I would do.

minitour · August 6th, 2009, 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by E_Dawg

I'd rather safely take it around the patch again than be guaranteed to have an accident by hitting a deer at 120mph. Even with the flaps and gear STUCK down the plane will climb.

...enough to make the climb gradients beyond/below the MAP/MDA?

All the time?

-mini

E_Dawg · August 6th, 2009, 17:40

No I edited that actually since I don't have performance info on it and can't be 100% sure. I dunno, you seem to be really getting into semantics on the premise of having multiple, serious, and unrelated system failures at a very bad time. By your logic you should never go around since IFR, VFR, etc... you'll be in a world of hurt if your flaps, gear, and engine all fail. Or never even fly at all since the fuel could be contaminated.

There really isn't a right or wrong answer... it's just what >I< would do. I disagree that my thought process could 'kill me' as you say, especially since I am choosing NOT to hit the deer and have an accident. Not to say that hitting the deer would be wrong either (depending on the situation), because like you say if you do happen to be at ASE (or wherever) going missed would not be the best option.

minitour · August 6th, 2009, 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by E_Dawg

No I edited that actually since I don't have performance info on it and can't be 100% sure. I dunno, you seem to be really getting into semantics on the premise of having multiple, serious, and unrelated system failures at a very bad time. By your logic you should never go around since IFR, VFR, etc... you'll be in a world of hurt if your flaps, gear, and engine all fail. Or never even fly at all since the fuel could be contaminated.

No, what I'm hung up on is your blanket statement that you would "go missed", period.

It just isn't that simple in the real world and I think you know that. There are more factors than just "oh, deer on the runway, here we go!".

Blanket statements can certainly get someone killed. Especially if you just go around saying "hey I'm in a transport category airplane, I can outclimb terps" (period). That kind of thinking, blanket statements, thinking in absolutes...can kill. It isn't that simple.

-mini

August 6th, 2009, 01:46	#27
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 50,368 Blog Entries: 1	Re: You're on the approach when there's a deer! "Dear's on the runway! Oh hon, get off the tarmac and fetch me a red koolaid!" __________________ Doug Taylor PPL-SEL PA-38 Typed

August 6th, 2009, 02:57	#28
FlyChicaga Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 5,539	Re: You're on the approach when there's a deer! __________________ i am matt's jetcareers signature

August 6th, 2009, 02:59	#29
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 50,368 Blog Entries: 1	Re: You're on the approach when there's a deer! Mmm.... Ven-i-son.... __________________ Doug Taylor PPL-SEL PA-38 Typed

August 6th, 2009, 05:51	#30
E_Dawg Moderator Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: usa Posts: 5,210	Re: You're on the approach when there's a deer! Go missed. Hitting a deer would not be fun... Perhaps additional risk from going missed past the MAP but hitting a deer would be additional risk too. A transport aircraft is going to climb better than the lowest common denominator the TERPS were designed for. Just my opinion.

August 6th, 2009, 13:57	#33
Milesar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 857	Re: You're on the approach when there's a deer! That poor deer has a leash stuck around its neck. I think executing the missed would be a good choice as long as you are familiar with the procedures (reviewed in the briefing) and know that there are no major obstacles that might be a factor after passing the MAP.

August 6th, 2009, 15:23	#35
gne in prog Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: 5050N Posts: 382	Re: You're on the approach when there's a deer! flat terrain- missed. aspen- kill the deer. i've hit a deer before in a navajo, it wasn't as much fun as it seems.

August 6th, 2009, 15:25	#36
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 50,368 Blog Entries: 1	Re: You're on the approach when there's a deer! So would we fly the published missed approach or the obstacle departure procedure? And why or why not? __________________ Doug Taylor PPL-SEL PA-38 Typed

August 6th, 2009, 16:03	#39
FlyChicaga Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 5,539	Re: You're on the approach when there's a deer! Beyond the MAP (and below MDA), I would consider it a "rejected landing," not a missed approach. Therefore, should we have any special departure procedures/single-engine departure procedures, I would follow that. In our briefings for an approach, we do brief the special departure procedure. If there was no special departure procedure, I would climb to MDA, then initiate the missed approach procedure, as appropriate. I'll add to the complexity of this situation, however. What would you do if your missed approach point was a VOR located at midfield, and you were rejecting the landing for a deer on the runway? Let's say there isn't a deer on the runway. Instead, it's a contaminated (7000 x 100 ft) runway with 1/2 inch of wet snow, braking action reported fair to poor by a vehicle. You float 3500 feet down the runway, and you elect to go-around (at least I hope so!). Do you fly the missed approach procedure? If so, when do you commence it? __________________ i am matt's jetcareers signature

August 6th, 2009, 16:08	#40
400A Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: MSP Posts: 480	Re: You're on the approach when there's a deer! Really? You guys brief the ODP off of the back of the 10-9 chart for the runway you are shooting the approach to?

August 6th, 2009, 16:27	#43
FlyChicaga Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 5,539	Re: You're on the approach when there's a deer! Not the 10-9 chart. We do use the 10-9 chart to brief: Expected turnoff Runway length/width Hotspots for expected taxi route For departures, we have 10-7 charts which are tailored to our aircraft. They are procedures developed by Ops Engineering, which allow us terrain clearance in the event of an engine failure on takeoff. At some airports, we have an ALL engines departure procedure. Reno was one off the top of my head. The procedures can look similar to the normal DP, or look completely different. If I can find the Reno charts, I'll see if I can scan them. It was a major PITA! __________________ i am matt's jetcareers signature

August 6th, 2009, 17:25	#47
E_Dawg Moderator Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: usa Posts: 5,210	Re: You're on the approach when there's a deer! I'd rather safely take it around the patch again than be guaranteed to have an accident by hitting a deer at 120mph. Even with the flaps and gear STUCK down the plane will climb. Yes I suppose if the flaps AND gear AND an engine simultaneously fail at the worst possible time when you go missed... then yes I suppose that could cause problems. A meteor hitting you could also do a lot of damage. Or your wings could fall off. Point being the chances of that are astronomical. I'll take an astronomical chance over a 100% chance of hitting something. Again this is just what I would do.

August 6th, 2009, 17:40	#49
E_Dawg Moderator Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: usa Posts: 5,210	Re: You're on the approach when there's a deer! No I edited that actually since I don't have performance info on it and can't be 100% sure. I dunno, you seem to be really getting into semantics on the premise of having multiple, serious, and unrelated system failures at a very bad time. By your logic you should never go around since IFR, VFR, etc... you'll be in a world of hurt if your flaps, gear, and engine all fail. Or never even fly at all since the fuel could be contaminated. There really isn't a right or wrong answer... it's just what >I< would do. I disagree that my thought process could 'kill me' as you say, especially since I am choosing NOT to hit the deer and have an accident. Not to say that hitting the deer would be wrong either (depending on the situation), because like you say if you do happen to be at ASE (or wherever) going missed would not be the best option.

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