EDCT time changes for the worse halfway into boarding

[Alchemy]

You have an afternoon departure (1445 go) to a large hub in the Gotham area.

You check your company computer before leaving the hotel at the oustation, and notice that the flight shows a 3 hour ATC delay. As a result, you contact ops at the oustation, ask them if they've heard anything, and they confirm the delay. You notify your crew and decide to stay at the hotel an extra hour.

You show up at the airport about an hour after your original show time, at 1500. After reaching the aircraft and contacting ATC, they confirm what the computer system had indicated, giving you a 1735 EDCT.

You tell ops you'd like to board at 1640, a little early in case the time changes. They seem to think this is too early but they agree.

1640 rolls around and everyone is ready to board, but suddenly someone from ops comes up and says we are showing a 1845 EDCT now. You call ATC, but they say it's still 1735. Putting your trust in ATC, you tell ops to board anyway. Halfway into boarding, ATC calls and says the EDCT is now 1845 (2+ hours away).

How would you handle this? Finish boarding, block out, and make everyone sit there for 2 hours? Stop boarding halfway into it and deal with the confusion? Board, but don't block out and just sit there with the doors open? What if you decide to board, and 30 minutes into it people start wanting to deplane? What if you don't board, your EDCT time gets moved back to the original time and you can't make it?

If it matters, the flight is 1 hour long, about half full and gate availability at the oustation is not an issue. For the financially minded, your contract guarantees block or better.

[Cptnchia]

For a 2 hour EDCT, stop boarding. Tell everyone about the delay, and let those on board that want to get off, get off. Keep everyone close to the gatehouse and be prepared for a quick getaway if things change. You should never make the passengers sit on a plane for two hours if you can help it. It's one thing to get a ground stop after you push and are in the money line, it's another to push knowing about the delay if gate space isn't an issue.

[jtrain609]

Board them, push. Taxi the aircraft to a part of the airport where you can shut her down and let the folks up. I've played this game, with this airline, and this hub enough to know that EDCT times can get better or worse in the blink of an eye. The last thing I'd want to do is miss my slot to get into that crap hole of an airport, and I think the folks in the back would prefer to get there after sitting on an airplane for 2 hours as opposed to waiting in the terminal for 5. Anyway, it's not like people don't sit on RJ's for hours at a time; this same company operates RJ's from Toronto to Houston.

[RPM]

If they were already boarded..too late, shut the door block out and taxi to the hold pad. Get paid and hope for an earlier slot which half the time you will get.

If they hadn't boarded yet.. eh.. wait an hour then board and block out.

2 hours is my limit though.. if its known to be more than that I'd let em off.

How many times have you gotten the call from ground when you let the pax off or don't board.. "Hey 4151, can you be ready to go in 15 min? " dammit..

[OldTownPilot]

They don't call it 'the sEWR' for nothing.

[RPM]

My longest block time in the Embraer.. (7:15) MEM-ORD last year when Memphis got the big freak snowstorm.

Took them over 2 hours to figure out the De-Ice truck in MEM, then took us 3 hours to get a gate at O'hare..

yeah, they weren't happy.. & the poor tiny little LAV was not pretty.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by Alchemy

You have an afternoon departure (1445 go) to a large hub in the Gotham area.

You check your company computer before leaving the hotel at the oustation, and notice that the flight shows a 3 hour ATC delay. As a result, you contact ops at the oustation, ask them if they've heard anything, and they confirm the delay. You notify your crew and decide to stay at the hotel an extra hour.

You show up at the airport about an hour after your original show time, at 1500. After reaching the aircraft and contacting ATC, they confirm what the computer system had indicated, giving you a 1735 EDCT.

You tell ops you'd like to board at 1640, a little early in case the time changes. They seem to think this is too early but they agree.

1640 rolls around and everyone is ready to board, but suddenly someone from ops comes up and says we are showing a 1845 EDCT now. You call ATC, but they say it's still 1735. Putting your trust in ATC, you tell ops to board anyway. Halfway into boarding, ATC calls and says the EDCT is now 1845 (2+ hours away).

How would you handle this? Finish boarding, block out, and make everyone sit there for 2 hours? Stop boarding halfway into it and deal with the confusion? Board, but don't block out and just sit there with the doors open? What if you decide to board, and 30 minutes into it people start wanting to deplane? What if you don't board, your EDCT time gets moved back to the original time and you can't make it?

If it matters, the flight is 1 hour long, about half full and gate availability at the oustation is not an issue. For the financially minded, your contract guarantees block or better.

Amidst many other variables, I changed airlines.

[SIUav8er]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

Board them, push. Taxi the aircraft to a part of the airport where you can shut her down and let the folks up. I've played this game, with this airline, and this hub enough to know that EDCT times can get better or worse in the blink of an eye. The last thing I'd want to do is miss my slot to get into that crap hole of an airport, and I think the folks in the back would prefer to get there after sitting on an airplane for 2 hours as opposed to waiting in the terminal for 5. Anyway, it's not like people don't sit on RJ's for hours at a time; this same company operates RJ's from Toronto to Houston.

then deal with all the "passengers bill of rights" nonsense that started with that Jet Blue incident a couple years ago...

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by SIUav8er

then deal with all the "passengers bill of rights" nonsense that started with that Jet Blue incident a couple years ago...

Eh?

[Alchemy]

I'll spill the beans:

I elected to continue boarding and block out, intending to clear the gate and find a nice quiet place to wait out the EDCT. I've had times change +/- 45min-1 hour without much notice. Right before we push the "station manager" gets on the tug headset and says "dispatch just called and said DO NOT RELEASE THAT AIRCRAFT".

I say, "okay, but it seems a bit late for that since we just blocked out". As a compromise I agree to stay at the gate with doors closed and APU running since they don't need it for anything.

About 40 minutes into "waiting it out", some lady with a dog in one of those carry-on-cases starts complaining about how she wants off because fluffly is getting restless. Being the animal lover that I am (ha), I call ops and have them bring the jetway back to the plane. At first just this lady wants off, but after being there for a few minutes, about half the plane starts asking to get off (sheeple syndrome). Ops says they have about 15 more people they want to try and put on the flight (they were booked for a later flight which was aso delayed), so they agree to deplane everyone and re-board the flight.

All this takes about 45 minutes, so at that point we're about 35 minutes to the EDCT, get our clearance, and blast out with a full boat. We arrive 3 hours late, then it's off to our reduced rest overnight, hooray. I'm sure the crew hated me, as we all lost about 2 hours of pay by blocking back in.

Moral of the story: Guess I should trust the company computers rather than Clearance Delivery when it comes to EDCT times. Apparantly there is at least a 10 or 15 minute lag between what the company knows and the info ATC gets. Makes sense I guess, since it's probably the dominant carrier at the hub that determines the order of these EDCT times, not ATC.

[Bandit_Driver]

Touch call but I'd board and go sit and hope for the best and keep the pax informed.

I just saw a different issue the other day in DEN. They boarded and RJ that had an 1:45 EDT and push it because they needed the gate.

[Velocipede]

Absolutely, Board, push wait.

I once blocked 8+30 on a 6 hour block EWR-SEA..

[Qgar]

//thread hijack -- what happened to "red card free since 1/20/09?" Someone's been naughty! // end hijack

[Velocipede]

You don't want to know! I'm a bad seed.

[Qgar]

Hellllo, Lucifer!

[Velocipede]

Bonjour!

[Bandit_Driver]

Originally Posted by Qgar

Hellllo, Lucifer!

Originally Posted by Velocipede

Bonjour!

LOL....

[skydog]

Originally Posted by Alchemy

You have an afternoon departure (1445 go) to a large hub in the Gotham area.

You check your company computer before leaving the hotel at the oustation, and notice that the flight shows a 3 hour ATC delay. As a result, you contact ops at the oustation, ask them if they've heard anything, and they confirm the delay. You notify your crew and decide to stay at the hotel an extra hour.

You show up at the airport about an hour after your original show time, at 1500. After reaching the aircraft and contacting ATC, they confirm what the computer system had indicated, giving you a 1735 EDCT.

You tell ops you'd like to board at 1640, a little early in case the time changes. They seem to think this is too early but they agree.

1640 rolls around and everyone is ready to board, but suddenly someone from ops comes up and says we are showing a 1845 EDCT now. You call ATC, but they say it's still 1735. Putting your trust in ATC, you tell ops to board anyway. Halfway into boarding, ATC calls and says the EDCT is now 1845 (2+ hours away).

How would you handle this? Finish boarding, block out, and make everyone sit there for 2 hours? Stop boarding halfway into it and deal with the confusion? Board, but don't block out and just sit there with the doors open? What if you decide to board, and 30 minutes into it people start wanting to deplane? What if you don't board, your EDCT time gets moved back to the original time and you can't make it?

If it matters, the flight is 1 hour long, about half full and gate availability at the oustation is not an issue. For the financially minded, your contract guarantees block or better.

I don't really see this as my decision to make. My job is to move the airplane when and where they tell me. I'll get the information from ATC, pass it along to both Dispatch and Station Ops, let them work out a decision, and transmit it to me via the Dispatcher. I leave when Dispatch authorizes it, ATC issues a clearance, and I think it's safe.

[Alchemy]

Originally Posted by skydog

I don't really see this as my decision to make. My job is to move the airplane when and where they tell me. I'll get the information from ATC, pass it along to both Dispatch and Station Ops, let them work out a decision, and transmit it to me via the Dispatcher. I leave when Dispatch authorizes it, ATC issues a clearance, and I think it's safe.

I agree....the decision comes into play when Dispatch and ATC have conflicting information, who do you trust? Common sense would seem to say ATC, but it appears Dispatch/Ops would've been the correct choice in this case. Sometimes the dominant carrier at the hub is pulling the strings that control the EDCT times, not ATC.

In any event I felt like an ass for boarding then having to deplane after having them sit onboard for 30 minutes, but in the end everyone got there I suppose. I did my best to explain the situation to the pax with periodic PA's. There were quite a few who disgruntled about the prospect of sitting out a 2 hour EDCT on the ramp, and i can't say that I particularly blame them. However, the situation is very fluid and I'd rather be ready to go in the event of a benficial changer rather than be unprepared.

In this case I probably should have involved the staion ops more in the decision, they seemed to indicate that EDCT times for this particular outsation almost NEVER get moved up.

[Rocketman99]

I have found that the EDCT information posted on the faa website (http://www.fly.faa.gov/edct/jsp/edctLookUp.jsp) for my flight number tends to be the most accurate period. It seems to get updated before ATC knows and ATC always seems to know before my disaptchers. As soon as I pull into the gate I whip that out on my phone and check for the outbound leg.

[OldTownPilot]

Originally Posted by Alchemy

In this case I probably should have involved the staion ops more in the decision, they seemed to indicate that EDCT times for this particular outsation almost NEVER get moved up.

For XJT, it seemed (all but once that I recall) that the company had the correct time sooner than tower did. Of course the one time that they didn't it turned into a major cluster (cx'd flight after 6 hours of "update in 30")


I never really dealt with any other chronically delayed airports while ramping in BGR, but It seemed like that times rarely moved up going into EWR. We were close enough to BOS that we could have a plane loaded and ready, and make an arrival slot in 40 minutes that someone else lost. being close has its advantages and disadvantages.

[texas_pilot]

Originally Posted by Rocketman99

I have found that the EDCT information posted on the faa website (http://www.fly.faa.gov/edct/jsp/edctLookUp.jsp) for my flight number tends to be the most accurate period. It seems to get updated before ATC knows and ATC always seems to know before my disaptchers. As soon as I pull into the gate I whip that out on my phone and check for the outbound leg.

Even quicker, all I have to do is get in my airplane and request clearance to EWR, I already expect the screws to be clamping down on my fingernails.

[Cav]

Originally Posted by OldTownPilot

For XJT, it seemed (all but once that I recall) that the company had the correct time sooner than tower did.

This is the key at least in my experience with EWR. Sure there are exceptions but I would guess 90% of the time the company computers will show the correct EDCT before ATC gets it.

I'm not going to question Alchemy's decision because 1) I wasn't there 2) I've done the exact same thing in the past that he did...however, my view has changed over the past few years from numerous experiences (all too many being based in EWR for 4+ years) and also the guidance the company recently gave us (I won't go into it here since I can't remember if it was confidential and I don't feel like looking it up right now!). Mostly because I've found that when I push and sit for lengthy periods of time I always feel like I'm asking for a problem (Comair news video remember that?)....APU busting, full lav, elderly diabetic passenger who runs out of food, the possibilities are endless. My general rule of thumb is to never board during a ground stop and start boarding 45 prior to an EDCT (which Alchemy appears to have tried to do the first time but the time changed). During the boarding process if I found out there was a 2 hour change to the EDCT I'd probably stop boarding.

When it gets really nasty is when you push for an EDCT time and it changes to a ground stop...and the update becomes and update.

[Cav]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

Board them, push. Taxi the aircraft to a part of the airport where you can shut her down and let the folks up. I've played this game, with this airline, and this hub enough to know that EDCT times can get better or worse in the blink of an eye. The last thing I'd want to do is miss my slot to get into that crap hole of an airport, and I think the folks in the back would prefer to get there after sitting on an airplane for 2 hours as opposed to waiting in the terminal for 5. Anyway, it's not like people don't sit on RJ's for hours at a time; this same company operates RJ's from Toronto to Houston.

I get your point and I tend to agree with your basic point however in my experience when the times start to radically improve the delay program is generally canceled or at least drastically reduced. Maybe I've been lucky but every time the EDCT time that was 2+ hours magically cancels, clearance calls us (or ops on the land line) and says how much time do you need? We say X minutes and ATC makes it happen. I've never "missed" a shortened EDCT and had it cost me any length of time beyond the original 2+ hour time. Does it potentially cost us 15 minutes once we board, push, taxi, etc? Sure, however for every time one EDCT time is shortened I've had 10 lengthened so I'll continue to play the odds and side with passenger comfort.

[jtrain609]

You raise a good point, I've never actually missed one either, but it's always the threat it'll happen right? Or "this one guy I talked with in the crew room, his cousin, who flies for mainline, missed his EDCT time by 15 seconds and the next thing he knows, he's been re-routed to Newark VIA Tel Aviv. True story dude! What type? 737...hey they're ETOPS!"

But I'm still generally very interested in getting out the door as soon as ATC allows it. I HAVE been in situations where ATC has said, "Can you be off the ground in 5 minutes? If so we can get you outta here."