YOU'RE A CREW MEMBER

C650CPT · December 21st, 2003, 20:54

Imitation being the best form of flattery here is my "you're a crew member" question.

You and I have just departed HOU ( Houston Hobby Airport ) and during the climb out we notice that the left engine is running about 50 degrees c cooler than the other engine. All other indications are normal as expected. After level off the engine is running 100 degrees c cooler than the right engine.

Note: The right engine is NOT running over limits, in fact it is operating at exactly the temperature you would expect given the power setting and ambiant temperature.

What are our available courses of action?
What do we do as a crew?

jetman · December 21st, 2003, 21:25

Is the cooler engine developing full power?
What kind of engine is this?

Tired · December 21st, 2003, 21:28

Running hot as in oil pressure or EGT? If we are talking EGT are the FF equal? RPM equal between both engines? What is the destination? Is the destination IFR or VFR? Are we going overwater?

Based on the info you have given so far I would contiune, assuming no wet footprint problems.

C650CPT · December 22nd, 2003, 04:42

ITT is running colder than expected. Jet egines, both N1 and N2 and fuel flows are matched perfectly and producing normal thrust. Flight Departed HOU and going to RDU ( about a 2 hr. flight ). Severe clear VFR.

FL270 · December 22nd, 2003, 06:48

Since N1, N2, and fuel flow are all matched, and the engines seem to be producing the expected and equal amounts of thrust, I am inclined to suspect a gauge or wiring problem. Except on the first part of the SID (VUH1, over the water along the gulf) we're not overwater, and even then you're 20 miles or less from land. There are lots of "bailout" option airports along the route of flight. My answer is to discuss the situation, agree to monitor the engine indications carefully, and continue the flight. Keep track of nearby airports in case a precautionary shutdown becomes necessary, and plan to have it checked by maintenance at the destination. Any indications that make either of us uncomfortable or unhappy we divert somewhere and get it looked at sooner.

I've had ITT fall right to zero and come back in flight before, or fall a hundred degrees for a little while and return ... so far (maybe I'm just lucky) it's only been gauge problems.

FL270

Tired · December 22nd, 2003, 07:05

I'd do nothing until there is some kind of secondary indication of a problem. What are you going to have more faith in, a two million dollar motor or two bits of wire and a fifty cent gauge?

C650CPT · December 22nd, 2003, 10:58

Tired and FL270
Pretty much how I handled this situation last week. The problem is that there is nothing in the checklist for this situation, so its really not an emergency per se, no limits were being exceeded. By the process of elimination I determine that it was in fact a wire ( cannon plug ) problem. About 45 min into the flight it started to work normally again. I hate to continue on a flight with a "problem" but this one had no reason to cut the fligth short. It is a judgement call and in this business there will always be second guesing, I'm sure there are some here that think a landing would have been prudent, I won't argue with them because if that is their judgment I accept it. This is one of those situations where there is no one correct answer, you just do the best with what you got and trust your training and instincs.

FlyChicaga · December 22nd, 2003, 18:18

I agree, all other indications normal, continue, keeping an eye on things to ensure things don't escalate. We actually have a comparative check of ITT (Delta-T check, difference in ITT during 10000 ft/Cruise checklist) to make aware of problem associated with non-normal ITT. But if everything else was normal, continue.

We actually had a simliar occurence, only with the Engine Oil Temperature gauge. It was pegged out to the high side, way above 130 degrees. Sometimes it would flick and settle on the red line, and flick very quickly green, then back to pegged. We called MX control to make them aware of the problem, were checking other indications, and preparing for a diversion to Moline, IL which we were almost over (coming back from Cedar Rapids, IA). Every other indication was normal (including Oil Pressure, which would have been a giveaway to a problem with pegged temperature) but all was normal. Turned out to be faulty gauge wiring.

FL270 · December 22nd, 2003, 18:26

Our engine indication problems in the -200 have always been gauge-related, usually (as in 650s case) cannon plug wiring. Replacing the gauge or even just hitting the cannon plug with contact cleaner has cleared up our problems.

The oil temp gauge problem FC describes would concern me a little more ... no arguments with the way you handle it, but you've got a bit more information to go in in 650's example that tells you everything is probably OK. The oil temp I'd watch more closely, but again be prepared for diversion and/or possible precautionary shutdown.

FL270

Kingairer · December 23rd, 2003, 19:45

EJECT!!!

MrSkyKingRon · December 23rd, 2003, 23:32

[ QUOTE ]
EJECT!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny...

All judgement call assesments seemed prudent and wise enough to me.

ShortsDriver · December 24th, 2003, 23:27

50 degrees seems like tight tolerances. We've almost always got some split in ITT on the Shorts. When it got to 200 split or one wasn't reaching target torque in cruise, then I started to become cautious. We're over water at night, but the captains are pretty relaxed. I suppose that comes with experience and completely trusting the PT6 and it's limits.

SEAN · January 8th, 2004, 10:26

How on earth do you fly that box with wings...those planes look horrendous....shorts that is.

Tired · January 11th, 2004, 13:42

If someone paid you to fly it you'd change your mind pretty quick. I've always wanted to take a look in one, I've been told it flies real nice and the cockpit is roomy.

EatSleepFly · January 11th, 2004, 14:24

I'd fly one in a heartbeat. I've ridden right seat for a few minutes in a SkyVan (before I jumped out)...pretty cool plane!

ShortsDriver · January 16th, 2004, 14:14

It's a blast. Sure it's slow, but hey, I'm building time right?

The cockpit is roomy...it's the only
one I can think of with a door for each crewmember. I think it's been said before, but it sure does
leak when it rains. Hawaii just got hit with about a week of rain, and needless to say I was no better
off in the seat due to the leaking overhead escape hatch. But with all it's quirks, it's smooth, stable,
and easy to land. No complaints here.

MQAAord · January 16th, 2004, 14:30

Oh! A Shortie! Do you have any of Eagle's old Shorts?

SteveC · January 16th, 2004, 18:54

[ QUOTE ]
Oh! A Shortie! Do you have any of Eagle's old Shorts?

[/ QUOTE ]
Eagle the moderator?

Eeewwwww!

MQAAord · January 16th, 2004, 20:21

[ QUOTE ]
Oh! A Shortie! Do you have any of Eagle's old Shorts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, okay I can see where I should have phrased my question a bit differently........

Does your company currently operate (as in fly) any of American Eagle's old SD330/360s?

Guess I should read my posts a little more carefully before I submit them!

ShortsDriver · January 17th, 2004, 22:27

Not sure where all of the airplanes have been. I belive
one had the blue and red stripes. Maybe Eagle? I've
seen pictures of one at Allegheny and one at Business
Express. Those old birds used to the be the cat's meow
for commuters. Riding up front is nice, but I don't know
about the back.

December 21st, 2003, 20:54	#1
C650CPT Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Home Sweet Home! Posts: 957	YOU\'RE A CREW MEMBER Imitation being the best form of flattery here is my "you're a crew member" question. You and I have just departed HOU ( Houston Hobby Airport ) and during the climb out we notice that the left engine is running about 50 degrees c cooler than the other engine. All other indications are normal as expected. After level off the engine is running 100 degrees c cooler than the right engine. Note: The right engine is NOT running over limits, in fact it is operating at exactly the temperature you would expect given the power setting and ambiant temperature. What are our available courses of action? What do we do as a crew?

December 21st, 2003, 21:25	#2
jetman Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 188	Re: YOU\'RE A CREW MEMBER Is the cooler engine developing full power? What kind of engine is this?

December 21st, 2003, 21:28	#3
Tired Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 514	Re: YOU\'RE A CREW MEMBER Running hot as in oil pressure or EGT? If we are talking EGT are the FF equal? RPM equal between both engines? What is the destination? Is the destination IFR or VFR? Are we going overwater? Based on the info you have given so far I would contiune, assuming no wet footprint problems.

December 22nd, 2003, 04:42	#4
C650CPT Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Home Sweet Home! Posts: 957	Re: YOU\'RE A CREW MEMBER ITT is running colder than expected. Jet egines, both N1 and N2 and fuel flows are matched perfectly and producing normal thrust. Flight Departed HOU and going to RDU ( about a 2 hr. flight ). Severe clear VFR.

December 22nd, 2003, 06:48	#5
FL270 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 1,101	Re: YOU\'RE A CREW MEMBER Since N1, N2, and fuel flow are all matched, and the engines seem to be producing the expected and equal amounts of thrust, I am inclined to suspect a gauge or wiring problem. Except on the first part of the SID (VUH1, over the water along the gulf) we're not overwater, and even then you're 20 miles or less from land. There are lots of "bailout" option airports along the route of flight. My answer is to discuss the situation, agree to monitor the engine indications carefully, and continue the flight. Keep track of nearby airports in case a precautionary shutdown becomes necessary, and plan to have it checked by maintenance at the destination. Any indications that make either of us uncomfortable or unhappy we divert somewhere and get it looked at sooner. I've had ITT fall right to zero and come back in flight before, or fall a hundred degrees for a little while and return ... so far (maybe I'm just lucky) it's only been gauge problems. FL270

December 22nd, 2003, 07:05	#6
Tired Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 514	Re: YOU\'RE A CREW MEMBER I'd do nothing until there is some kind of secondary indication of a problem. What are you going to have more faith in, a two million dollar motor or two bits of wire and a fifty cent gauge?

December 22nd, 2003, 10:58	#7
C650CPT Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Home Sweet Home! Posts: 957	Re: YOU\'RE A CREW MEMBER Tired and FL270 Pretty much how I handled this situation last week. The problem is that there is nothing in the checklist for this situation, so its really not an emergency per se, no limits were being exceeded. By the process of elimination I determine that it was in fact a wire ( cannon plug ) problem. About 45 min into the flight it started to work normally again. I hate to continue on a flight with a "problem" but this one had no reason to cut the fligth short. It is a judgement call and in this business there will always be second guesing, I'm sure there are some here that think a landing would have been prudent, I won't argue with them because if that is their judgment I accept it. This is one of those situations where there is no one correct answer, you just do the best with what you got and trust your training and instincs.

December 22nd, 2003, 18:18	#8
FlyChicaga Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 4,750	Re: YOU\'RE A CREW MEMBER I agree, all other indications normal, continue, keeping an eye on things to ensure things don't escalate. We actually have a comparative check of ITT (Delta-T check, difference in ITT during 10000 ft/Cruise checklist) to make aware of problem associated with non-normal ITT. But if everything else was normal, continue. We actually had a simliar occurence, only with the Engine Oil Temperature gauge. It was pegged out to the high side, way above 130 degrees. Sometimes it would flick and settle on the red line, and flick very quickly green, then back to pegged. We called MX control to make them aware of the problem, were checking other indications, and preparing for a diversion to Moline, IL which we were almost over (coming back from Cedar Rapids, IA). Every other indication was normal (including Oil Pressure, which would have been a giveaway to a problem with pegged temperature) but all was normal. Turned out to be faulty gauge wiring.

December 22nd, 2003, 18:26	#9
FL270 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 1,101	Re: YOU\'RE A CREW MEMBER Our engine indication problems in the -200 have always been gauge-related, usually (as in 650s case) cannon plug wiring. Replacing the gauge or even just hitting the cannon plug with contact cleaner has cleared up our problems. The oil temp gauge problem FC describes would concern me a little more ... no arguments with the way you handle it, but you've got a bit more information to go in in 650's example that tells you everything is probably OK. The oil temp I'd watch more closely, but again be prepared for diversion and/or possible precautionary shutdown. FL270

December 23rd, 2003, 19:45	#10
Kingairer Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Nomadic...World Wide Boobie Bungalow Bouncer Posts: 3,166	Re: YOU\'RE A CREW MEMBER EJECT!!!

December 23rd, 2003, 23:32	#11
MrSkyKingRon Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Vero Beach, Ft.Pierce Posts: 216	Re: YOU\'RE A CREW MEMBER [ QUOTE ] EJECT!!! [/ QUOTE ] Funny... All judgement call assesments seemed prudent and wise enough to me.

December 24th, 2003, 23:27	#12
ShortsDriver Newbie Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Honolulu, Hawaii Posts: 12	Re: YOU\'RE A CREW MEMBER 50 degrees seems like tight tolerances. We've almost always got some split in ITT on the Shorts. When it got to 200 split or one wasn't reaching target torque in cruise, then I started to become cautious. We're over water at night, but the captains are pretty relaxed. I suppose that comes with experience and completely trusting the PT6 and it's limits.

January 8th, 2004, 10:26	#13
SEAN Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WASHINGTON, DC Posts: 135	Re: YOU\'RE A CREW MEMBER How on earth do you fly that box with wings...those planes look horrendous....shorts that is.

January 11th, 2004, 13:42	#14
Tired Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 514	Re: You are the crew member. If someone paid you to fly it you'd change your mind pretty quick. I've always wanted to take a look in one, I've been told it flies real nice and the cockpit is roomy.

January 11th, 2004, 14:24	#15
EatSleepFly Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: ?? Posts: 4,600	Re: YOU\'RE A CREW MEMBER I'd fly one in a heartbeat. I've ridden right seat for a few minutes in a SkyVan (before I jumped out)...pretty cool plane!

January 16th, 2004, 14:14	#16
ShortsDriver Newbie Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Honolulu, Hawaii Posts: 12	Re: YOU\'RE A CREW MEMBER It's a blast. Sure it's slow, but hey, I'm building time right? The cockpit is roomy...it's the only one I can think of with a door for each crewmember. I think it's been said before, but it sure does leak when it rains. Hawaii just got hit with about a week of rain, and needless to say I was no better off in the seat due to the leaking overhead escape hatch. But with all it's quirks, it's smooth, stable, and easy to land. No complaints here.

January 16th, 2004, 14:30	#17
MQAAord Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: The Looney Bin Posts: 8,812	Re: YOU\'RE A CREW MEMBER Oh! A Shortie! Do you have any of Eagle's old Shorts?

January 16th, 2004, 18:54	#18
SteveC Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: GRR Posts: 8,362	Re: YOU\'RE A CREW MEMBER [ QUOTE ] Oh! A Shortie! Do you have any of Eagle's old Shorts? [/ QUOTE ] Eagle the moderator? Eeewwwww!

January 16th, 2004, 20:21	#19
MQAAord Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: The Looney Bin Posts: 8,812	Re: YOU\'RE A CREW MEMBER [ QUOTE ] Oh! A Shortie! Do you have any of Eagle's old Shorts? [/ QUOTE ] Umm, okay I can see where I should have phrased my question a bit differently........ Does your company currently operate (as in fly) any of American Eagle's old SD330/360s? Guess I should read my posts a little more carefully before I submit them!

January 17th, 2004, 22:27	#20
ShortsDriver Newbie Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Honolulu, Hawaii Posts: 12	Re: YOU\'RE A CREW MEMBER Not sure where all of the airplanes have been. I belive one had the blue and red stripes. Maybe Eagle? I've seen pictures of one at Allegheny and one at Business Express. Those old birds used to the be the cat's meow for commuters. Riding up front is nice, but I don't know about the back.

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