Suspended!! (unfortunately, this is not hypothetical)

BeechBoy · February 22nd, 2008, 18:22

For those of you who have been following my thread on freezing rain in "Technical Talk" the issue reared it's ugly head again today. To make a long story short I was flying from Milwaukee to Dayton. Freezing rain was in the forecast so I suspected there might be trouble. Sure enough ATIS was broadcasting light freezing rain at the surface and the forecast said there was more to come for the next several hours.

Due to the warning in the AFM and several conversations I had with the icing experts at NASA I elected to return to Milwaukee. The Director of Operations suspended me and is going to try to get me fired.

I've already talked to our ALPA rep, the FSDO, and NASA and have their support when the battle starts. I was just wondering if there's any further advice anyone can give me.

Thanks!

ackeight · February 22nd, 2008, 18:40

Wow. I'm surprised that they would even have the cahoneys to try to fire you. If it's captains decision to divert because of WX, especially freezing rain I wouldn't think the airline would have a big enough problem with that to fire you. I guess try to get ahold of your chief pilot(s) and see what they say. Personally I think you will turn out OK in this circumstance. If not I'm sorry. Hey look at the bright side, you have a good "what if" answer to give at an interview and a lot of companies would applaud you for your decision to make a safe landing somewhere else.

BeechBoy · February 22nd, 2008, 19:00

My Chief Pilot is just a mouthpiece for the Director of Operations. He's standing behind his boss on this one.

Unfortunately, I'm not so sure airlines would welcome someone who goes against the grain. Thanks for your support.

Teller1900 · February 22nd, 2008, 19:20

That's not going against the grain, that's doing your duty and exercising PIC authority for the better interest of the flight and everyone on board. If they didn't want you to make decisions about the operation of the flight they should be up there flying it, not you. Don't second guess yourself, you done good.

Copperhed51 · February 22nd, 2008, 19:34

Unbelievable. I'm tempted to go talk to my director of safety about this issue before it ever comes up for me. I need to get ahold of the manuals for the ERJ-145 first though. But from what I understand, no aircraft is certified into SLD conditions, which has been verified in your previous thread, and in the NASA icing video we watched in training. This is really a stupid situation that is money driven and completely unsafe according to information that the airlines give to their employees. I wish you the best and just know that the majority of the pilot community is behind you...management is a different story.

BeechBoy · February 22nd, 2008, 20:12

That's a good idea. My advice to everyone is to find out specificaly what icing conditions your aircraft is certified for BEFORE it becomes an issue. I've talked to CRJ pilots and they told me that they were certified for flight into light freezing rain but nothing heavier than that. Nothing at Skyway says specifically that we can operate in "light" freezing rain - they reached that conclusion by a liberal interpretation of the warning in the AFM (i.e. It referred to "freezing rain" and "freezing drizzle" so they assumed Dornier meant "moderate" freezing rain and "moderate" freezing drizzle. When pressed for an answer Dornier Support Services said they meant even "light" freezing precip.) Whether these CRJ operators are using the same interpretation method is anybody's guess (any CRJ/ERJ drivers have any input?).

Here's something that I just learned. Freezing drizzle is actually WORSE than freezing rain. Although the droplets are smaller than freezing rain they are still "large" (100-150 micron) and freezing drizzle tends to have more liquid per unit volume than freezing rain.

Also, the faster you fly in these conditions (up to 350 knots) the worse it is because the impacted drops have more energy (1/2 mv^2) with which to cross streamlines and, therefore, impact aft of the boots. This has to be weighed against the fact that if you fly faster you'll exit the conditions sooner but I always thought that when flying in icing conditions you wanted high speed/low AOA.

Finally, in Bill Rieke's book In-Flight Icing (he's one of the research pilots you see in the NASA training video - also my new best friend

) he states that SLD encounters are extremely dangerous "regardless of the type of ice protection used. No amount of boot cycles or heat on the leading edge of the wing will provide protection for an SLD encounter. There is no aircraft flying today that is protected from this phenomenon". That's 15+ years of SLD experience talking. Of course, my Director of Operations knows better

.

Minuteman · February 22nd, 2008, 20:49

Sorry to hear about your drama. Gather information! (edit: before too much time passes!)

http://adds.aviationweather.noaa.gov

TAFs, METARs, DATIS, whatever. See if you can find other people who operated into your intended destination today and see what they thought of the conditions.

BobDDuck · February 22nd, 2008, 21:09

You talk to your POI yet?

Lee D · February 22nd, 2008, 21:18

That sounds really odd. Based on what you have said it sounds like you made a very, very prudent choice. Perhaps an inconvenience to your pax and the company, but much less inconvenient and expensive than several possible outcomes I can think of. I wouldn't blink if the ATIS is calling freezing rain; I'm going someplace else.

Good luck with your fight. It sounds like you have two solid legs to stand on with this one.

Chief Captain · February 22nd, 2008, 21:37

I'm still a PPL working my way up the ladder, but here are my opinions:

This is a disgrace. You had a decision to make and chose to err on the side of safety. That is commendable. I don't believe you should even be held accountable for such a decision, but to be reprimanded and disciplined is unthinkable. Have these people never flown an airplane? You contacted the manufacturer, and they affirmed that you made the correct decision. If the CP has chosen to suspend you, HE is remiss in his duties. I dare suggest that you inform the company in writing that if any further action is taken against you, you will be forced to consider legal action against them, and remind them that the press would just love to hear a story like this. With the recent public awareness of aviation safety, it'll be all over the news.

I would also suggest that you send a letter to your FSDO, as the CP is a required position at a carrier, with a FAR defined role. This is in clear violation of said role. You are in a position to file an official complaint, and that should get the FAA to start an investigation.

On a more positive note, maybe it's a blessing. It never looks good to be fired, but do you really want to fly for a company with this sort of attitude? I doubt a future employee will penalize you for your actions. Going against the grain is one thing. What you did was observe AFM limitations and demonstrate your competence as a commander.

Velocipede · February 23rd, 2008, 00:28

Get your Union Rep and the FAA in on this ASAP. Have both of them go to your hearing with you.

Usually all it takes is for you to say (with the FAA at your elbow), "Now let me get this straight. You suspended me for NOT operating a revenue flight into known and reported freezing rain?"

That should end the conversation, especially if your aircraft isn't certified for operations into freezing rain (few are!).

Number1atNumber2 · February 23rd, 2008, 01:52

Man that sucks dude! I'd say make sure you have as much recording of what the dir of ops and chief pilot have said to you thus far. Written recordings go farther than verbal accounts.

Personally, I'd be asking myself just how bad I want to keep working for these people?

mojo6911 · February 23rd, 2008, 02:22

You are safe, and your passengers are safe. If you don't get fired, I would still seek employment elsewhere.

ElyJs · February 23rd, 2008, 02:41

Wow, your case sounds strong. I am really sorry that you have to deal with the stress of this situation, but from the sounds of it you have the important people behind you.

It does not seem prudent for any employer to take ANY kind of action against you.

I read a bunch of the other threads and it seems like the best you can do is fight to not get fired or suspended and try to get paid for your last few months. Would be nice if you could get paid to sit at home.

You followed regs and did everything by the book as I see it, but one man strikes don't usually work out so well. I can't imagine the environment and relationship between management and labor there right now.

Seems to be a risky battle for the CP and management.

-Jason
www.flyboulder.com

Doug Taylor · February 23rd, 2008, 02:42

Beechboy, sorry that happened. You made a decision, the chief pilot didn't back you but you've got a union so you have a legal team to fight back and I'll bet you you'll have a little cash in your pocket after you win the grievance.

Sadly, some CP's fly the line so rarely that they forget what it's like on the line.

When Skyway finally ceases operations, I'll hold "Unkie Dougie Story Time" and talk about my time on the safety committee there.

SoonerAv8r · February 23rd, 2008, 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeechBoy

For those of you who have been following my thread on freezing rain in "Technical Talk" the issue reared it's ugly head again today. To make a long story short I was flying from Milwaukee to Dayton. Freezing rain was in the forecast so I suspected there might be trouble. Sure enough ATIS was broadcasting light freezing rain at the surface and the forecast said there was more to come for the next several hours.

Due to the warning in the AFM and several conversations I had with the icing experts at NASA I elected to return to Milwaukee. The Director of Operations suspended me and is going to try to get me fired.

I've already talked to our ALPA rep, the FSDO, and NASA and have their support when the battle starts. I was just wondering if there's any further advice anyone can give me.

Thanks!

I'm not asking this question to be the "Devil's Advocate" here. I'm working on finishing up my PPL and onto flight school afterward. So my question is this....Could it be that the issue is allowing the flight to depart despite having freezing rain forecast at the destination? I'm not real educated with airline procedures at this point of my training. Is the go-no go call entirely up to the captain or are there personel who can override or pressure the captain to depart in such conditions?

I'll enjoy any replies for their educational value.

I hope you the best in this sticky situation.

JEP · February 23rd, 2008, 02:46

So they want to fire you, yet they are ceasing operations soon? Is there any thought to they are trying to dump some people before the end of operations? Does the company save any $$$ by not having a pilot on the payroll at that time? Just curious if there is any severance type for the people being let go when the company ceases to operate.

Doug Taylor · February 23rd, 2008, 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEP

So they want to fire you, yet they are ceasing operations soon? Is there any thought to they are trying to dump some people before the end of operations? Does the company save any $$$ by not having a pilot on the payroll at that time? Just curious if there is any severance type for the people being let go when the company ceases to operate.

http://forums.jetcareers.com/airline...e-kolshak.html (Don't Screw The Skyway Pilots, MEH & Joe Kolshak.)

granlistillo · February 23rd, 2008, 14:27

Good on ya amigo. Sounds like you made a good decision. I hope you win, but in the meantime, I am sure you could find a better place to work.

Pistolpak1 · February 25th, 2008, 19:38

you made the descion, I can only echo everyone else. I say fight it, they have to prove "just" cause for the suspension therefore, they may very well drop it or they will lose if you bring in the legal team. Like the other guy said it beats the alternative of flying in SLD and getting your card pulled for a violation.

Bumblebee · February 27th, 2008, 12:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pistolpak1

it beats the alternative of flying in SLD and getting your card pulled for a violation.

or worse . . .

WalterSobchak · February 27th, 2008, 13:31

Just out of curiousity the company only has 6 days left so what all happens to your CP & DFO do they go the way of the rest of Skyway? Will the suspension even exist on a record in a week? I think some one already asked or said it, but did you talk to your POI or MKE FSDO about the -FZRA issue prior? Sorry for the 20 Q's, but this just is a double slap in the face for you I hope it gets resolved. Have you found a new job yet? Hopefully you do and one where they encourage a safe decisions.

Mike734 · February 27th, 2008, 15:13

Just a couple of thoughts.

1. Usually when they want to fire you it is because they want you gone and have for a while. Do you have a reputation?

2. Did you discuss the decision to return to your departure airport with your dispatcher? If you have one you should have.

3. What was the actual wx at the time of your approach? I don't mean the ATIS as that can be 1 hour old or more. Was there freezing rain/dz at the time of your arrival?

4. The decision is ultimately the captains but that does not mean it can not be questioned. If you have a reputation of making "bad" decisions according to your employer then you need retraining and/or more experience.

If your employer can only attract relatively low time pilots then they get exactly what they paid for. You made the right decision based on the information you had at the time because it was YOUR decision to make. Even if 99/100 pilots would do something different, if YOU don't feel comfortable then YOU made the right decision.

My advice would be to document as much as possible and get experts to defend you.

Good luck.

falconvalley · February 27th, 2008, 15:34

Man, what a bunch of crap. Augie wouldn't have pulled that! Sounds like you know what you're talking about and GG doesn't. He just doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut!

BeechBoy · February 28th, 2008, 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by WalterSobchak

Just out of curiousity the company only has 6 days left so what all happens to your CP & DFO do they go the way of the rest of Skyway? Will the suspension even exist on a record in a week? I think some one already asked or said it, but did you talk to your POI or MKE FSDO about the -FZRA issue prior? Sorry for the 20 Q's, but this just is a double slap in the face for you I hope it gets resolved. Have you found a new job yet? Hopefully you do and one where they encourage a safe decisions.

Actually they have 6 WEEKS left. The CP already has a job offer with Airtran. I'm sure the DO will be out of a job as well. I heard that they have severence packages that are based on Skyway continuing to fly until the end. That may be some motivation for them reacting so strongly to what they feel is an "unnecessary" cancellation.

I don't know if any disciplinary action will exist when Skyway is gone. I guess that's a question for my attorney.

Yes, I talked to the POI at the FSDO but Skyway somehow got to him (or his supervisor). The guy who only a week ago was singing praises to me for making the right decision is suddenly looking the other way. "This is an administrative matter between you and your company" were his exact words. Let's see if I have this straight. Skyway wants to ignore a manufacturer's warning because it will cost them money if they obey it. To this end they have suspended a pilot who simply followed this warning. Somehow, the POI doesn't feel this is a safety issue. Well, he's the one who has to look at himself in the mirror and admit that he bowed to pressure and compromised his principles.