Landing without a clearance - What would you do?

Chief Captain · February 19th, 2008, 21:28

I'll borrow this from Airline Pilot Central:

http://airlinepilotforums.com/showthread.php?t=22512

Here’s a question:

You’re going into Atlanta on one of those pretty busy nights where nobody can get a word in, and ATC kept you high and fast, then slam dunks you. So now you’re nearly there, and at 100ft, you realize that you’re still with approach control, and haven’t been given clearance to land. What do you do? Go missed or just land? The runway is clear, and there’s no traffic that seems to be about to cross the runway. You know you have more than enough fuel to loiter for a bit, so that’s no issue. Ceiling is 1000ft and 10SM visibility. Would your answer be different if the FAA was on board?

Please let us not get sidetracked with how you managed to be on approach frequency at 100ft.

BajtheJino · February 19th, 2008, 21:40

You don't wait, regardless of reason. You just switch to tower. And you don't wait until your 100ft above.

minitour · February 19th, 2008, 21:55

What am I flying? Can I safely get it in ground effect and keep it there until I get a landing clearance in a few seconds?

If not.................around we go. My answer is the same with a fed on board...but I'd be curious as to why I'm so close without switching.

-mini

aeroflyer55 · February 19th, 2008, 22:26

Like that guy said... just go to tower.

Mad Doggy Dog · February 19th, 2008, 22:36

[quote=Chief Captain;804778].......at 100ft, you realize that you’re still with approach control, and haven’t been given clearance to land. What do you do? Go missed or just land?quote]

----------------------------

Go around...............it is the safest thing to do.........and you'll make more money.

Cptnchia · February 19th, 2008, 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Captain

Please let us not get sidetracked with how you managed to be on approach frequency at 100ft.

Not to sidetrack you, but at least in the ATL, approach would have either reminded you to switch to tower if you forgot to at the outer marker, (heard that on the freq one night,) or if you are that close in, would clear you to land after coordinating with tower, (heard that one too.)

sdfcvoh · February 19th, 2008, 23:54

Way before you are that close you either hot-mic it and ask approach for freq change; or just make the change yourself. But you DO NOT land.

cime_sp · February 20th, 2008, 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Captain

I'll borrow this from Airline Pilot Central:

http://airlinepilotforums.com/showthread.php?t=22512

Here’s a question:

You’re going into Atlanta on one of those pretty busy nights where nobody can get a word in, and ATC kept you high and fast, then slam dunks you. So now you’re nearly there, and at 100ft, you realize that you’re still with approach control, and haven’t been given clearance to land. What do you do? Go missed or just land? The runway is clear, and there’s no traffic that seems to be about to cross the runway. You know you have more than enough fuel to loiter for a bit, so that’s no issue. Ceiling is 1000ft and 10SM visibility. Would your answer be different if the FAA was on board?

Please let us not get sidetracked with how you managed to be on approach frequency at 100ft.

Actually happens quite a bit in ATL. You are expected to just switch over to twr at the marker. If you don't, twr will usually have approach give you a reminder. I've even heard approach clear somebody to land. There are also many cases folks have landed without a clearance and later checked on with tower and heard them say "no problem, you saw the green light right????....Right?" The regs say go around, but every controller there would tell you they would rather have you land. Go-arounds mess up the flow

ackeight · February 20th, 2008, 03:14

I had a similar instance at ATL a couple months ago. Ceiling was around 500ft though. I switched to tower and no response. Apparently they had some problems with all frequencies. I asked approach what was up and they just said try again. Well needless to say breaking out 500ft agl it was hard to see the tower signal lights. *cough*. Also, approach had direct contact with the tower through a land line to let them know I was landing.

Cptnchia · February 20th, 2008, 09:09

Also, if it's 1000 ft, they are most likely conducting ILS PRMs. You should be monitoring the breakout frequency.

Velocipede · February 20th, 2008, 12:35

Look at the tower for a green light before you punch the TOGA buttons. If you haven't called them, they'll use the Aldis Lamp if its safe for you to land.

minitour · February 20th, 2008, 18:09

Guys are bringing up looking for the light. I just assume that's pretty obvious and didn't think to bring it up since the light constitutes your ATC clearance...

But yeah...look for the light, then do what ya need to do but you don't land without a clearance of some sort. Even if tower would say 100% of the time "yeah you saw the light, right?" after I land...I still wouldn't do it. There could be a billion reasons I didn't get a landing clearance yet and I don't know it until it's too late.

-mini

WalterSobchak · February 21st, 2008, 12:57

I'm going around. With or with out the FAA. If I haven't recieved a clearence maybe some one else pulls on the runway, but I am NOT landing.

Doug Taylor · February 21st, 2008, 13:00

I'd go around.

Besides, you're paid by the minute, no?

WalterSobchak · February 21st, 2008, 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

I'd go around.

Besides, you're paid by the minute, no?

LOL thats what I was thinking also. The extra tenth!

BuickCFI · February 21st, 2008, 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

I'd go around.

Besides, you're paid by the minute, no?

same

Chief Captain · February 21st, 2008, 22:56

Thanks for the responses guys. I've never had to use light signals. Do you really have time to look for a light signal at 100ft though?

I'm pretty sure asking approach for the clearance is not an option at 100ft- by the time the message gets through, you're inches above the ground.

Screaming_Emu · February 22nd, 2008, 04:32

I've heard many times since I started training "yeah, the guys in the tower would rather you land so you don't mess up the flow of traffic". Probably wouldn't stand up if the FAA decided to press the issue. In addition to that its just a safety factor, I'm goin around, no question.

Teller1900 · February 22nd, 2008, 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Screaming_Emu

I've heard many times since I started training "yeah, the guys in the tower would rather you land so you don't mess up the flow of traffic". Probably wouldn't stand up if the FAA decided to press the issue. In addition to that its just a safety factor, I'm goin around, no question.

Absolutely!

What if this time the tower guys didn't want you to land or forgot you were there? It may not be part of the normal stabilized approach definition, but if the landing isn't assured get out of there and try again. Don't gamble your ticket that the runway is clear and the controller is going to cover for you. If there's an inspector anywhere near the airport they won't care about anything that's not on the tapes. Without a landing clearance you're not authorized on that runway...same as you wouldn't say "the previous guy is on his takeoff roll, I'll just go ahead and position and hold; they're going to tell me to pretty soon anyways."

FlyChicaga · February 22nd, 2008, 13:27

Definitely go-around.

If you landed then noticed you were still on approach, ASAP report!

BobDDuck · February 22nd, 2008, 18:16

One of our crews (wasn't me) landed here with out a clearance. Who knows why but they never switched over to tower. After rolling out they realized what happened and called up tower as they cleared the runway.Tower said that they must have stepped on him when he cleared them to land, but he never got a read back, but it was ok.

That said, I'd be going around by 300 feet if I haven't got a clearance to land.