Landing without a clearance - What would you do? - Page 2

Chief Captain · February 22nd, 2008, 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

Actually, that just applies to the Delta program.

Can you expand on that statement a bit more please? From my limited knowledge of law, I was under the impression that the judge has now set a precedent that can be applied to future cases.

Doug Taylor · February 23rd, 2008, 03:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Captain

Thanks to some daft judge, those reports are no longer confidential. I'm sure people will stop filing them soon.

Better talk to your local MEC about that then!

BobDDuck · February 23rd, 2008, 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Captain

Can you expand on that statement a bit more please? From my limited knowledge of law, I was under the impression that the judge has now set a precedent that can be applied to future cases.

I spoke with our ASAP coordinator about this two days ago. The way the agreements are worded they are between the company, the union and the FAA. While it is possible this judge set a precedent by deciding this way (and for those who didn't hear, the company somehow as able to extract names and information from confidential data and then went after the pilots for violations) it doesn't automatically apply to other ASAP programs.

granlistillo · February 23rd, 2008, 14:20

I thought ASAP really only worked with "sole source reporting". It would seem that if you landed without being cleared and the tower pushed it, its a runway incursion, and it would be reported anyway. Sure, file an ASAP, but if you are caught, you could be violated, no?

Best to go around I think and file an ASAP for not switching to tower. Safer too, unless you are in a fuel emergency.

Chief Captain · February 23rd, 2008, 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by granlistillo

I thought ASAP really only worked with "sole source reporting". It would seem that if you landed without being cleared and the tower pushed it, its a runway incursion, and it would be reported anyway. Sure, file an ASAP, but if you are caught, you could be violated, no?

I think the rule is that if you file the report, you either don't get in trouble, or they go easy on you. I'm not too sure though.

granlistillo · February 24th, 2008, 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Captain

I think the rule is that if you file the report, you either don't get in trouble, or they go easy on you. I'm not too sure though.

ASAP is not the same as a nasa report, but usually filed concurrently. My understanding is that each airline has a different program negotiated with the mec and approved by the controlling fsdo. My point is that an asap only keeps you out of trouble (including certificate action), if it wasnt flagrant, intentional and that the asap is the sole source (that means it wasnt brought to attention of management or the FAA chain) from another source. IE, the tower making a report of a runway incursion.

Chief Captain · February 24th, 2008, 16:35

OK. I'm clear now. Thanks

Animal · February 24th, 2008, 17:24

I like Doug's response>>>$$$$$$$

Pistolpak1 · February 25th, 2008, 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

I'd go around.

Besides, you're paid by the minute, no?

AGREED and CONCURED

wheredhego · March 10th, 2008, 19:23

Being based out of ATL, I can tell you, get over to tower and keep their operation running. There are guys who have landed without a clearance, but they were cleared to land...get it. Tower will confirm their clearance and the message was garbled.
If you switch from tower to approach, they know it. If you can't get a word in, do it the FAF. You will pretty much always switch there except for PRM approaches when they switch you over upon intercepting the LOC.

Once you are on the ground...keep rolling. I have landed on 26R and not talked to ground until almost onto F while on the V loop. they want to keep everything rolling. They have ground radar and are watching where you are at.

WMostellar · March 10th, 2008, 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

One of our crews (wasn't me) landed here with out a clearance. Who knows why but they never switched over to tower. After rolling out they realized what happened and called up tower as they cleared the runway.Tower said that they must have stepped on him when he cleared them to land, but he never got a read back, but it was ok.

Been there, done that...though it as a touch and go in the Air Force.

When I finally talked to tower they were as kind and accommodating as possible.

However, there was the time I got kicked out of Dobbins ARB.

wheredhego · March 10th, 2008, 21:03

And the ATC guys in ATL are all really great.

They just got rid of the new "descend via" STARs due to numerous amounts of pilot deviations. I never saw what was so hard about the things, but I guess they had a lot of guys descending into departure corridors or busting the "at or above" fixes. Now they are simply down to speed restrictions, but today we were told to ignore that as well. We'll see what happens tomorrow!

Yesterday a Northwest guy busted an altitude and he knew he screwed up bad. (I asked the captain if he had him in sight as we were following...he said NO, so i told him "right there, the guy with his tail tucked between his wings!").
We listened to NW from then on, and usually ground is the one to give the phone number, but they let the guy off the hook without incident...probably because no FAA guys were around at the time. The FAA guys require the ATC controllers to bust the pilots (watch out for the PRM approaches as they will call you on the monitor frequency)

BobDDuck · March 10th, 2008, 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheredhego

Yesterday a Northwest guy busted an altitude and he knew he screwed up bad. (I asked the captain if he had him in sight as we were following...he said NO, so i told him "right there, the guy with his tail tucked between his wings!").
We listened to NW from then on, and usually ground is the one to give the phone number, but they let the guy off the hook without incident...probably because no FAA guys were around at the time. The FAA guys require the ATC controllers to bust the pilots (watch out for the PRM approaches as they will call you on the monitor frequency)

Don't assume the guy got away with it. It's not unheard of for the FAA to audit tapes randomly and go after both the controller and the pilot after the fact. An ASAP program WILL protect you in that case.

wheredhego · March 11th, 2008, 00:06

I know if I were the NW guy I would have submitted my NASA report the next day. Who knows what will happen. The tapes do get audited, but i'm not sure how closely they look at them.

phoenix 23684 · May 4th, 2008, 20:18

A few months back at IAH a flight either put the wrong frequency or just plain forgot, but either case landed without talking to tower and as they were exiting the runway they realized their error and tower simply said: There you are, in a happy sarcastic voice, and simply asked for gate. That was all.

I understand all the FARs and blah blahs, but really you are going into a Class B as a part 121 carrier, they have you on radar and pretty much know what you'll be doing, not like it's going to cause confusion at the airport. Go around will def set the chain of chaos.

phoenix 23684 · May 4th, 2008, 20:19

A few months back at IAH a flight either put the wrong frequency or just plain forgot, but either case landed without talking to tower and as they were exiting the runway they realized their error and tower simply said: There you are, in a happy sarcastic voice, and simply asked for gate. That was all.

I understand all the FARs and blah blahs, but really you are going into a Class B as a part 121 carrier, they have you on radar and pretty much know what you'll be doing, not like it's going to cause confusion at the airport. Go around will def set the chain of chaos.

Think of this what's the safer option. Does it make sense to initiate a go around at a 100 feet or simply land on an empty runway??? Aren't we taught to follow our planed flight plan with failed coms.

germb747 · May 5th, 2008, 03:26

The best bet is to do it by the book. ATC does not expect you to land without a clearance. If you're number 1 for the runway and the tower is too busy to clear you to land, then how do you know it's safe? It's definitely not legal. Even in the lost comm case, you're expected to land by a green light gun signal. Definitely don't jeopardize your ticket just to 'help with the flow'. Go around and try again.

mrivc211 · May 5th, 2008, 14:30

Go around. FAA now considers this a runway incursion. It will go on your record, whether the controller likes to do it or not. AND if he decides not to do it, odds are when they get audited, the supervisor will go back and do it for him. All the while you think your safe.

Our airline is now emphasizing this heavily. Don't land, in the old days, no problemo. Not anymore. and BTW I know a guy whos done it twice! Once in PSP and once in LAX. Both times he forgot he was on the approach freq. It's easy to do on your 7th leg of the day. Trust me.

ATLTRACON · Yesterday, 07:08

I'm sure y'all saw me flash the Green Light

Lance F · Yesterday, 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by cime_sp

Actually happens quite a bit in ATL. You are expected to just switch over to twr at the marker.

Is this true? Is there anything in the AIM that would indicate such an automatic frequency change procedure? The approach plates don't mention doing this, and as a matter of fact in the ILS PRM instructions it says "When instructed, immediately switch to the tower frequency..." (emphasis mine)

Bama · Yesterday, 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lance F

Is this true? Is there anything in the AIM that would indicate such an automatic frequency change procedure? The approach plates don't mention doing this, and as a matter of fact in the ILS PRM instructions it says "When instructed, immediately switch to the tower frequency..." (emphasis mine)

It's just kinda understood.. They always tell you to contact tower at the OM but sometimes workload doesn't permit a call from approach. If it's busy common sense is to call tower once you've reached the OM.

Just wanna say that you ATL controllers do a helluva job! Keep up the great work...

ATLTRACON · Yesterday, 12:28

No it is not an understood practice, it is in your approach clearance.

"Citrus 755 maintain 180 kts until DEPOT, at DEPOT contact ATL tower on 119.3.

Unless we are on triple PRM or dual ILS'. Then you must be transfered to the tower prior to losing vertical separation with aircraft on adjacent final, IE 1 NM from IAF.

Bama · Yesterday, 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATLTRACON

No it is not an understood practice, it is in your approach clearance.

"Citrus 755 maintain 180 kts until DEPOT, at DEPOT contact ATL tower on 119.3.

Unless we are on triple PRM or dual ILS'. Then you must be transfered to the tower prior to losing vertical separation with aircraft on adjacent final, IE 1 NM from IAF.

Not to split hairs, but sometimes you guys do not throw it in the approach clearance. And when ya don't, it's understood.

As in... I know you forgot about us, but we understand.