In cruise flight along the Atlantic Route

Doug Taylor · November 12th, 2003, 16:37

You're flying from Fort Lauderdale, FL to Boston, MA on an AR route, just offshore.

You have level four thunderstorms to the west and there is a large system of cells to your north.

You ask air traffic control for a 25 degree turn to the east to avoid an area of severe weather and you are denied because of an active warning area.

Taking a peek at the weather radar, it looks like if do conducted a 180 and flew another 70 miles to the south, you'd be able to circumnavigate the area of weather, but then you'd arrive at BOS "fuel critical", plus the weather at BOS is going to require an instrument approach.

The weather in your immediate vicinity doesn't seem scattered enough to 'pick your way' through the cells. They also have a vast amount of vertical development so your chances of climbing over them are slim to none (as usual).

So captain, what do you do?

Tim · November 12th, 2003, 17:07

Ask the color what he is seeing on his radar and try to compare the two. Offer again your suggestion for a best heading and then see what he counters with. Between the 2 the is got to be happy area. Remind him the storms are Level 4 and you cant get over them either. Be proactive but encourage his imput and you might get what you want

Doug Taylor · November 12th, 2003, 17:14

On an IFR flight plan, as far as I've seen, ATC cannot clear you into an active warning area.

pavelump · November 12th, 2003, 18:21

Call the airline's dispatcher/metorologist and see about a new route with a short stop to fuel up. I'm sure people would be pissed, but that's better than dead right?

Dave

I_Money · November 12th, 2003, 19:50

Where exactly are the thunderstorms - around SC?? What is the weather like at alternates/route of flight after the thunderstorms??

If the storms are South, and it is clear for the last 1000 miles into BOS, I would do the 180, and monitor fuel on the way in if the route and alternate looks good!

flyguy · November 12th, 2003, 21:25

Just plow right through them full speed ahead.

Actually I haven't learned enough about weather to play this time so I'll see what everyone else comes up with.

C650CPT · November 13th, 2003, 09:14

Doug
I had this situation a few months ago flying back from Cuba, the wx kept pushing me east, I ended up past thier radar range and I assume they just coordinated with the controlling authority of the Warning Areas. I don't know if I was actually in the WA or not, but if I wasn't I was close, Another variable is I was flying a Military plane maybe that got me some leeway.

To answer the question though I try to make WX deviation decisions as far out as possible. A last minute look at the big radar picture prior to take off and listening to ATC and how they are routing other flights usually gives me a pretty good idea of how I can successfully negotiate a wx obstacle. I have only done a 180 once and that was working center they were dogmatic about vectoring me over Orlando VOR, even though I had already passed the abeam point, so once clear of the wx they turned us all but 180 direct ORL then on course.

Doug Taylor · November 13th, 2003, 09:26

Cuba? Hauling back some cee-gars?

Anyway, I don't know what the 'right' answer is, but I do know this evening, I heard probably ten or fifteen aircraft do the same exact thing.

Now isn't THAT murky?

C650CPT · November 13th, 2003, 09:42

Clear as Mud ... there is no right answer.

Who me cigars ... sir I don't know how they got in my flight bag ...honest. Oh and that Havana Club Rum, by the way the best Rum I've never had, don't know how that got in there either. I actually can't get either item in Cuba as we land at Gitmo and they are tight as a drum right now.

Doug Taylor · November 13th, 2003, 10:19

Since I'm going away for a couple days this weekend for "Dougfest in LAS" as some of my users call it, I'll tell you what I heard being done that night.

The weather was so bad along the eastern seaboard, I heard aircraft after aircraft beg ATC for turns to the east to circumnavigate the weather to no avail.

"Center, XYZ flight 123 squawking seven-seven-zero-zero, turning right to a heading of 010, will offset course by two zero miles anticipate back on course in six zero miles".

Lots of pilots chose that method this evening.

It is right? Is it wrong? Who knows!

Kristie · November 13th, 2003, 10:53

What is an active warning area?

C650CPT · November 14th, 2003, 05:10

Doug
When I was checking out of the Luxor yesterday, I was going to leave you a present (cee-gar type as you say), but they didn't have you registered, I guess next time.

Jim

NJA_Capt · November 14th, 2003, 06:01

Climb to FL470 or FL490, bob and weave a little bit, and land with more fuel than planned in BOS.

Something to consider is whether the a/c has the overwater gear to be more than 50-100+nm offshore. I'm not sure which AR you're talking about. We usually us AR1/14 with landfall at DIX. Routes we use North of ORF aren't very far off shore.

raysalmon · November 14th, 2003, 08:05

[ QUOTE ]
What is an active warning area?

[/ QUOTE ]

An area off the coast that the Navy plays with its guns in.

Ray

ready2fly · November 14th, 2003, 08:28

[ QUOTE ]
Doug
When I was checking out of the Luxor yesterday, I was going to leave you a present (cee-gar type as you say), but they didn't have you registered, I guess next time.

Jim

[/ QUOTE ]
He registers under the sudo name - Lenny Kravitz.

flyguy · November 14th, 2003, 15:20

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What is an active warning area?

[/ QUOTE ]

An area off the coast that the Navy plays with its guns in.

Ray

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahaha, good description! Mind if I use those words in my PPL oral check?

FlyChicaga · November 16th, 2003, 18:23

I probably wouldn't do the 7700 thing, since I'd be afraid it might bite me in the ass later. They'd ask "why didn't you divert south?" My take would be to do the 180, and see if we could get around the weather to the west. If I should see that we aren't making good progress and are going to eat deeply into our reserve fuel (more than 5-10 minutes) I'd get on the horn with dispatch and request an alternate for fuel. Refuel, and hopefully be able to keep that arrival slot. I hesitate to head into the warning area, especially in this day and age. Even under 7700 and in an airliner.

Snow · November 17th, 2003, 19:34

Hum, I'd consider punching through and dodging storms as best as possible, I'm sure the plane could take it, afterall 30 year old Lockeed Electrias punch through huricanes on a regular basis. My room mate was faced with a simular situation, a 60,000ft thunderstorm dead ahead and they couldn't go around it because they were in a narrow 'airway' of international airspace in between two less than friendly countries, they had no option but to tighten the belts and ride it out. This was in a P-3 Orion, although I would imagine the cost of fixing the broken radar dome and un-denting the wings from hail damage was costly. Hum... I went through a big thunderstorm in a DC-10 once, that was kinda fun, like a rollercoaster ride, rock concert and light show all thrown into one.

Actually I think I'd call up dispatch for a call on that one, would they lose more money from turning around or fixing the hail damage? I don't see the plane being in any real danger as long as turbulance penetration speed was maintained and you had plenty of altitude.

jtrain609 · November 17th, 2003, 20:15

What do you think costs more? To replace the plane or put some more gas in it?

If you fly into a thunderstorm and come out the other side you are one lucky guy as far as I'm concerned.

BTW Manuvering speed for an airliner does not mean the same thing as a Cessna. There are different certification criteria and airliners (certified under FAR Part 25 I believe) don't have to be able to hold together almost no matter what at manuvering speed. A full control input at that speed can still rip your wings off (as the poor guys in that A300 over New York found out about).

Cheers

John Herreshoff

FlyChicaga · November 17th, 2003, 20:41

Not even worrying about structural intergrity, also worry about the condition of your passengers and crew in the back. Excessive turbulence can so some major damage to the bodies in the back. Even moderate turbulence can cause injury. Stay away from T-storms!

NJA_Capt · November 24th, 2003, 07:28

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure the plane could take it, afterall 30 year old Lockeed Electrias punch through huricanes on a regular basis.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hurricanes and TRWs are vastly different animals. Hurricanes are horizontal winds with liquid H2O. Aircraft transition to 150+ kt winds in the jetstream every day. Thunderstorms are a high velocity vertical sheer with the possiblity of SOLID H20. It is always better penetrate near the bottom than the top of a TRW. The (certified)ceiling on a P-3 is approx FL280. So even at max altitude they would have penetrated the bottom half, I doubt they were above 10,000 though.

Our aircraft is FAR25 certified. Max G loads in cruise are -1.0 to +2.7
Max turbulent air penetration 300kts/.90 Mach
VA at FL410 approx 250 KIAS

Don't do it.

flyover · May 25th, 2004, 09:46

Stay clear of the storms. If you can backtrack and deviate so as to avoid the warning areas do so. If you have to land short, land short.

If you goof and get yourself in a corner, declare the emergency, let the controller know where you are going and go there.

Bottom line don't penetrate a TRW.

FatBastard · May 27th, 2004, 23:02

is this talk about water and green goo is making me.......................HUNGRY!

Kingairer · May 28th, 2004, 18:54

Dispatch has to be consulted before any drastic action is taken. You should see this coming in advance to give you enough to to talk it over with them and THEN make your descion.

flyifrvfr · May 30th, 2004, 22:11

I would do the 180 and power back to save some fuel. We might be a little late, but we would clear the storms, and still have plenty of fuel when we land at KBOS.

November 12th, 2003, 16:37	#1
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,825 Blog Entries: 1	In cruise flight along the Atlantic Route You're flying from Fort Lauderdale, FL to Boston, MA on an AR route, just offshore. You have level four thunderstorms to the west and there is a large system of cells to your north. You ask air traffic control for a 25 degree turn to the east to avoid an area of severe weather and you are denied because of an active warning area. Taking a peek at the weather radar, it looks like if do conducted a 180 and flew another 70 miles to the south, you'd be able to circumnavigate the area of weather, but then you'd arrive at BOS "fuel critical", plus the weather at BOS is going to require an instrument approach. The weather in your immediate vicinity doesn't seem scattered enough to 'pick your way' through the cells. They also have a vast amount of vertical development so your chances of climbing over them are slim to none (as usual). So captain, what do you do?

November 12th, 2003, 17:07	#2
Tim Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Atlanta Posts: 2,205	Re: In cruise flight long the Atlantic Route Ask the color what he is seeing on his radar and try to compare the two. Offer again your suggestion for a best heading and then see what he counters with. Between the 2 the is got to be happy area. Remind him the storms are Level 4 and you cant get over them either. Be proactive but encourage his imput and you might get what you want

November 12th, 2003, 17:14	#3
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,825 Blog Entries: 1	Re: In cruise flight long the Atlantic Route On an IFR flight plan, as far as I've seen, ATC cannot clear you into an active warning area.

November 12th, 2003, 18:21	#4
pavelump Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 789	Re: In cruise flight long the Atlantic Route Call the airline's dispatcher/metorologist and see about a new route with a short stop to fuel up. I'm sure people would be pissed, but that's better than dead right? Dave

November 12th, 2003, 19:50	#5
I_Money Moderator Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Socal Posts: 5,645	Re: In cruise flight long the Atlantic Route Where exactly are the thunderstorms - around SC?? What is the weather like at alternates/route of flight after the thunderstorms?? If the storms are South, and it is clear for the last 1000 miles into BOS, I would do the 180, and monitor fuel on the way in if the route and alternate looks good!

November 12th, 2003, 21:25	#6
flyguy Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 2,071	Re: In cruise flight long the Atlantic Route Just plow right through them full speed ahead. Actually I haven't learned enough about weather to play this time so I'll see what everyone else comes up with.

November 13th, 2003, 09:14	#7
C650CPT Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Home Sweet Home! Posts: 957	Re: In cruise flight long the Atlantic Route Doug I had this situation a few months ago flying back from Cuba, the wx kept pushing me east, I ended up past thier radar range and I assume they just coordinated with the controlling authority of the Warning Areas. I don't know if I was actually in the WA or not, but if I wasn't I was close, Another variable is I was flying a Military plane maybe that got me some leeway. To answer the question though I try to make WX deviation decisions as far out as possible. A last minute look at the big radar picture prior to take off and listening to ATC and how they are routing other flights usually gives me a pretty good idea of how I can successfully negotiate a wx obstacle. I have only done a 180 once and that was working center they were dogmatic about vectoring me over Orlando VOR, even though I had already passed the abeam point, so once clear of the wx they turned us all but 180 direct ORL then on course.

November 13th, 2003, 09:26	#8
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,825 Blog Entries: 1	Re: In cruise flight long the Atlantic Route Cuba? Hauling back some cee-gars? Anyway, I don't know what the 'right' answer is, but I do know this evening, I heard probably ten or fifteen aircraft do the same exact thing. Now isn't THAT murky?

November 13th, 2003, 09:42	#9
C650CPT Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Home Sweet Home! Posts: 957	Re: In cruise flight long the Atlantic Route Clear as Mud ... there is no right answer. Who me cigars ... sir I don't know how they got in my flight bag ...honest. Oh and that Havana Club Rum, by the way the best Rum I've never had, don't know how that got in there either. I actually can't get either item in Cuba as we land at Gitmo and they are tight as a drum right now.

November 13th, 2003, 10:19	#10
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 39,825 Blog Entries: 1	Re: In cruise flight long the Atlantic Route Since I'm going away for a couple days this weekend for "Dougfest in LAS" as some of my users call it, I'll tell you what I heard being done that night. The weather was so bad along the eastern seaboard, I heard aircraft after aircraft beg ATC for turns to the east to circumnavigate the weather to no avail. "Center, XYZ flight 123 squawking seven-seven-zero-zero, turning right to a heading of 010, will offset course by two zero miles anticipate back on course in six zero miles". Lots of pilots chose that method this evening. It is right? Is it wrong? Who knows!

November 13th, 2003, 10:53	#11
Kristie Big Chief's Woman Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Scottsdale, Arizona Posts: 17,705 Blog Entries: 3	Re: In cruise flight along the Atlantic Route What is an active warning area?

November 14th, 2003, 05:10	#12
C650CPT Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Home Sweet Home! Posts: 957	Re: In cruise flight long the Atlantic Route Doug When I was checking out of the Luxor yesterday, I was going to leave you a present (cee-gar type as you say), but they didn't have you registered, I guess next time. Jim

November 14th, 2003, 06:01	#13
NJA_Capt Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,291	Re: In cruise flight along the Atlantic Route Climb to FL470 or FL490, bob and weave a little bit, and land with more fuel than planned in BOS. Something to consider is whether the a/c has the overwater gear to be more than 50-100+nm offshore. I'm not sure which AR you're talking about. We usually us AR1/14 with landfall at DIX. Routes we use North of ORF aren't very far off shore.

November 14th, 2003, 08:05	#14
raysalmon Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: CO Posts: 260	Re: In cruise flight along the Atlantic Route [ QUOTE ] What is an active warning area? [/ QUOTE ] An area off the coast that the Navy plays with its guns in. Ray

November 14th, 2003, 08:28	#15
ready2fly Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: DFW Posts: 7,080	Re: In cruise flight long the Atlantic Route [ QUOTE ] Doug When I was checking out of the Luxor yesterday, I was going to leave you a present (cee-gar type as you say), but they didn't have you registered, I guess next time. Jim [/ QUOTE ] He registers under the sudo name - Lenny Kravitz.

November 14th, 2003, 15:20	#16
flyguy Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 2,071	Re: In cruise flight along the Atlantic Route [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] What is an active warning area? [/ QUOTE ] An area off the coast that the Navy plays with its guns in. Ray [/ QUOTE ] Hahaha, good description! Mind if I use those words in my PPL oral check?

November 16th, 2003, 18:23	#17
FlyChicaga Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 4,750	Re: In cruise flight along the Atlantic Route I probably wouldn't do the 7700 thing, since I'd be afraid it might bite me in the ass later. They'd ask "why didn't you divert south?" My take would be to do the 180, and see if we could get around the weather to the west. If I should see that we aren't making good progress and are going to eat deeply into our reserve fuel (more than 5-10 minutes) I'd get on the horn with dispatch and request an alternate for fuel. Refuel, and hopefully be able to keep that arrival slot. I hesitate to head into the warning area, especially in this day and age. Even under 7700 and in an airliner.

November 17th, 2003, 19:34	#18
Snow Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 869	Re: In cruise flight along the Atlantic Route Hum, I'd consider punching through and dodging storms as best as possible, I'm sure the plane could take it, afterall 30 year old Lockeed Electrias punch through huricanes on a regular basis. My room mate was faced with a simular situation, a 60,000ft thunderstorm dead ahead and they couldn't go around it because they were in a narrow 'airway' of international airspace in between two less than friendly countries, they had no option but to tighten the belts and ride it out. This was in a P-3 Orion, although I would imagine the cost of fixing the broken radar dome and un-denting the wings from hail damage was costly. Hum... I went through a big thunderstorm in a DC-10 once, that was kinda fun, like a rollercoaster ride, rock concert and light show all thrown into one. Actually I think I'd call up dispatch for a call on that one, would they lose more money from turning around or fixing the hail damage? I don't see the plane being in any real danger as long as turbulance penetration speed was maintained and you had plenty of altitude.

November 17th, 2003, 20:15	#19
jtrain609 Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Park City, UT Posts: 12,100	Re: In cruise flight along the Atlantic Route What do you think costs more? To replace the plane or put some more gas in it? If you fly into a thunderstorm and come out the other side you are one lucky guy as far as I'm concerned. BTW Manuvering speed for an airliner does not mean the same thing as a Cessna. There are different certification criteria and airliners (certified under FAR Part 25 I believe) don't have to be able to hold together almost no matter what at manuvering speed. A full control input at that speed can still rip your wings off (as the poor guys in that A300 over New York found out about). Cheers John Herreshoff

November 17th, 2003, 20:41	#20
FlyChicaga Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 4,750	Re: In cruise flight along the Atlantic Route Not even worrying about structural intergrity, also worry about the condition of your passengers and crew in the back. Excessive turbulence can so some major damage to the bodies in the back. Even moderate turbulence can cause injury. Stay away from T-storms!

November 24th, 2003, 07:28	#21
NJA_Capt Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,291	Re: In cruise flight along the Atlantic Route [ QUOTE ] I'm sure the plane could take it, afterall 30 year old Lockeed Electrias punch through huricanes on a regular basis. [/ QUOTE ] Hurricanes and TRWs are vastly different animals. Hurricanes are horizontal winds with liquid H2O. Aircraft transition to 150+ kt winds in the jetstream every day. Thunderstorms are a high velocity vertical sheer with the possiblity of SOLID H20. It is always better penetrate near the bottom than the top of a TRW. The (certified)ceiling on a P-3 is approx FL280. So even at max altitude they would have penetrated the bottom half, I doubt they were above 10,000 though. Our aircraft is FAR25 certified. Max G loads in cruise are -1.0 to +2.7 Max turbulent air penetration 300kts/.90 Mach VA at FL410 approx 250 KIAS Don't do it.

May 25th, 2004, 09:46	#22
flyover Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,389	Re: In cruise flight along the Atlantic Route Stay clear of the storms. If you can backtrack and deviate so as to avoid the warning areas do so. If you have to land short, land short. If you goof and get yourself in a corner, declare the emergency, let the controller know where you are going and go there. Bottom line don't penetrate a TRW.

May 27th, 2004, 23:02	#23
FatBastard Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Unites States, Generally. Posts: 263	Re: In cruise flight along the Atlantic Route is this talk about water and green goo is making me.......................HUNGRY!

May 28th, 2004, 18:54	#24
Kingairer Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Nomadic...World Wide Boobie Bungalow Bouncer Posts: 3,166	Re: In cruise flight along the Atlantic Route Dispatch has to be consulted before any drastic action is taken. You should see this coming in advance to give you enough to to talk it over with them and THEN make your descion.

May 30th, 2004, 22:11	#25
flyifrvfr Banned Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Baltimore, Maryland Posts: 85	Re: In cruise flight along the Atlantic Route I would do the 180 and power back to save some fuel. We might be a little late, but we would clear the storms, and still have plenty of fuel when we land at KBOS.

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