You're the FO: Captain and Noise Abatement

Doug Taylor · November 11th, 2003, 19:21

You're the first officer on a jet departing Santa Ana/Orange County/John Wayne (who's idea was it to keep tacking on names?!) with a freakish noise abatement procedure.

You're cleared for takeoff and the captain completely disregards the noise abatement procedure.

What do you do/say, if anything?

A300Capt · November 11th, 2003, 19:33

[ QUOTE ]
What do you do/say, if anything?

[/ QUOTE ]

"Hey, nice takeoff, Capt!" "I wanna be just like you!".

Did I miss something?

Doug Taylor · November 11th, 2003, 19:37

Psst! I know! Shh!

av8rmsu · November 11th, 2003, 19:55

It matters who the captain is...

grumpy old man - use the sense God gave me and shut up

nice guy, left his ego at the door - discuss it in a nonoffensive tone...maybe he just overlooked the procedure or was just not clear with the instructions

JDMcFly · November 11th, 2003, 20:17

"Ooh ahah, just gave an early wake up call to the Smiths"

EatSleepFly · November 11th, 2003, 20:22

Probably just remind him of its existence, if that. If he's already disregarded it, no sense in making an issue of it- get on with the flight.

JDMcFly · November 11th, 2003, 20:23

[ QUOTE ]
Probably just remind him of its existence. If he's already disregarded it, no sense in making an issue of it- get on with the flight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't the slightest idea an airline's procedure's in this event, so that's what I'd do.

av8rmsu · November 11th, 2003, 20:27

On the other hand....

Holler bloody murder!!!!!!....

Just movin' on up the seniority list

Is that kind of like not sending a captain a get well soon card?

JDMcFly · November 11th, 2003, 20:28

'Just movin' on up the seniority list'

As doug has always said (I think..) repremands come in two!

Edit: Not sure if that applies, just sounded good

FlyChicaga · November 11th, 2003, 21:07

I'd say, "Umm, I believe the noise abatement procedures are in effect. Are we supposed to be using the procedure?"

Either he/she will say "oh oops, good catch" or "nope." If it's the latter, I would continue assisting with the NPF duties so as not to get into an argument in such a critical phase of flight (we might be loud but are we going to crash? No.). Then at a later time I would bring up the fact I was concerned about the repricussions from disregarding the procedure.

Remember CUS words: "I'm concerned with what is happening at the moment." No response? "I'm uncomfortable with what is happening at the moment." No response still? "I believe this is a safety issue and needs to be corrected immediately."

However in this situation, it is a noise abatement requirement, not a DP avoiding mountains. If it were the latter, there would be more interest in ensuring proper following of the procedure. Like I said, if the flight is still being operating safely (although not following the procedure), it might cause more harm than good to start a major discussion about why the captain did not fly the procedure properly.

BTW if this response makes no grammatical sense, sorry I'm exhausted!

Kristie · November 11th, 2003, 21:37

I'd say "good for you man, the airport was here first - let the city council deal with the folks who bought there"..

well, no might not be right answer - but i sure like it! hahaha

kostcoguy · November 11th, 2003, 22:03

I would just mention it too him "Do you know about the noise abatement procedure here?" that would probably fix that pretty quick.

flyguy · November 11th, 2003, 22:29

I'm with Kristie, they chose to live near the airport. But I guess their sh** don't stink either. Don't say anything to the captain and tell the snobs to move if they don't like it.

Seriously though, the captain probably just overlooked the procedures, so I would politely remind him/her.

Doug Taylor · November 11th, 2003, 22:32

Here's an example of a MD-90 noise abatement procedure for Orange County: http://jetcareers.com/acrobat/sna.pdf

Snow · November 12th, 2003, 06:21

Um unless the aircraft was in any danger I wouldn't say anything, it's 'his' aircraft and if he messes up he's going to get the ass kicking for it.

JEP · November 12th, 2003, 06:29

[ QUOTE ]
Um unless the aircraft was in any danger I wouldn't say anything, it's 'his' aircraft and if he messes up he's going to get the ass kicking for it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll play devils advocate here....Suppose the Captain decides to have a drink while flying? The aircraft would probably not be in danger, but would you let that slide as well?

Also, what if you are unlucky and fly with a few captains that decide to break the Noise Abatement procs. I would think that the powers that be would see who was the first officer and then wonder why didn't he/she speak up?

I don't think I would question the captain right away, but I would question him for my own knowledge once in level cruise flight.

naunga · November 12th, 2003, 07:34

First off, correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that in the eyes of the FAA noise abatment procedures are purely voluntary.

If this is true then it comes down to what the company's policy is on them.

If the company sides with the FAA, then I keep my mouth shut. I'm with Kristie, the airport was here first.

If the company says (and it appears that they do) noise abatment procs are to be followed to the letter, then I'll probably just mention that hey you know you missed that procedure there? But that would be it, and I wouldn't press the issue with him. Maybe he just forgot. Maybe he didn't care. If he forgot, well then next time I may mention that there is a noise abatment procedure in effect before takeoff, just to be helpful. Hell, I'd probably do that even if he didn't care to fly it. At least I can say I reminded him of the procedure.

Reprimands may come in two's, but the procedure was already busted. It's not like you can wrestle the controls away from him and do it right. You're screwed already.

You're already off the ground and the procedure has already been missed. At least I'm on record reminding him of the procedure.

That's what I'd do...from the safety of my computer screen.

Naunga

C650CPT · November 12th, 2003, 08:14

It all goes back to the pre take off briefing, was the Noise Abatement procedure briefed and briefed back? If it was and that is what you were expecting the Cpt. to do and he didn't there is a larger issue of crew resource management or pilot performance issues that needs to be adressed, that is more of a safety issue than the noise abatement is. If it wasn't briefed then I would post flight critique that WE missed it and will include such procedures in future pre take off briefings.
My situation stated on another thread was the latter, never briefed, we were in the go home mode.

Doug Taylor · November 12th, 2003, 09:46

[ QUOTE ]
Um unless the aircraft was in any danger I wouldn't say anything, it's 'his' aircraft and if he messes up he's going to get the ass kicking for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Violations and all-expenses-paid trips to the chief pilot's office are issued in pairs.

Doug Taylor · November 12th, 2003, 09:50

[ QUOTE ]
First off, correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that in the eyes of the FAA noise abatment procedures are purely voluntary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Somewhat, however, airlines get charged hefty fees for setting-off the noise monitors. If your flight exceeded the maximum decibel level and you don't have a valid excuse for not following the procedure things could get very interesting.

av8rmsu · November 12th, 2003, 10:00

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First off, correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that in the eyes of the FAA noise abatment procedures are purely voluntary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Somewhat, however, airlines get charged hefty fees for setting-off the noise monitors. If your flight exceeded the maximum decibel level and you don't have a valid excuse for not following the procedure things could get very interesting.

[/ QUOTE ]

what would be a valid excuse...other than emergencies or aircraft avoidance?

Doug Taylor · November 12th, 2003, 10:04

[ QUOTE ]
what would be a valid excuse...other than emergencies or aircraft avoidance?

[/ QUOTE ]

Usually in Orange County, we brief that if we lose an engine, have any abnormal indications or experience any control difficulties, all bets are off and we're going to resume the standard departure profile.

ShoreFly · November 12th, 2003, 17:06

"Hey Capt, thanks for not doing the Noise Abatement Procedure, we would've hit those birds!"

Always CYA when the cockpit voice recorder is running

Doug Taylor · November 12th, 2003, 17:20

[ QUOTE ]
"Hey Capt, thanks for not doing the Noise Abatement Procedure, we would've hit those birds!"

Always CYA when the cockpit voice recorder is running

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently, there's a captain who jokingly says, "I dunno Sparky, this doesn't look good" to the CVR voice element.

blee256 · November 13th, 2003, 14:26

This is what I'ld say

"its a good thing your flying, because I thought there was a noise abatement procedure here."

November 11th, 2003, 19:21	#1
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 40,566 Blog Entries: 1	You\'re the FO: Captain and Noise Abatement You're the first officer on a jet departing Santa Ana/Orange County/John Wayne (who's idea was it to keep tacking on names?!) with a freakish noise abatement procedure. You're cleared for takeoff and the captain completely disregards the noise abatement procedure. What do you do/say, if anything?

November 11th, 2003, 19:33	#2
A300Capt Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Louisville, Kentucky Posts: 709	Re: You\'re the FO: Captain and Noise Abatement [ QUOTE ] What do you do/say, if anything? [/ QUOTE ] "Hey, nice takeoff, Capt!" "I wanna be just like you!". Did I miss something?

November 11th, 2003, 19:37	#3
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 40,566 Blog Entries: 1	Re: You\'re the FO: Captain and Noise Abatement Psst! I know! Shh!

November 11th, 2003, 19:55	#4
av8rmsu Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Pickwick Lake Posts: 448	Re: You\'re the FO: Captain and Noise Abatement It matters who the captain is... grumpy old man - use the sense God gave me and shut up nice guy, left his ego at the door - discuss it in a nonoffensive tone...maybe he just overlooked the procedure or was just not clear with the instructions

November 11th, 2003, 20:17	#5
JDMcFly Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: New York Posts: 1,664	Re: You\'re the FO: Captain and Noise Abatement "Ooh ahah, just gave an early wake up call to the Smiths"

November 11th, 2003, 20:22	#6
EatSleepFly Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: ?? Posts: 4,600	Re: You\'re the FO: Captain and Noise Abatement Probably just remind him of its existence, if that. If he's already disregarded it, no sense in making an issue of it- get on with the flight.

November 11th, 2003, 20:23	#7
JDMcFly Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: New York Posts: 1,664	Re: You\'re the FO: Captain and Noise Abatement [ QUOTE ] Probably just remind him of its existence. If he's already disregarded it, no sense in making an issue of it- get on with the flight. [/ QUOTE ] I haven't the slightest idea an airline's procedure's in this event, so that's what I'd do.

November 11th, 2003, 20:27	#8
av8rmsu Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Pickwick Lake Posts: 448	Re: You\'re the FO: Captain and Noise Abatement On the other hand.... Holler bloody murder!!!!!!.... Just movin' on up the seniority list Is that kind of like not sending a captain a get well soon card?

November 11th, 2003, 20:28	#9
JDMcFly Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: New York Posts: 1,664	Re: You\'re the FO: Captain and Noise Abatement 'Just movin' on up the seniority list' As doug has always said (I think..) repremands come in two! Edit: Not sure if that applies, just sounded good

November 11th, 2003, 21:07	#10
FlyChicaga Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 4,820	Re: You\'re the FO: Captain and Noise Abatement I'd say, "Umm, I believe the noise abatement procedures are in effect. Are we supposed to be using the procedure?" Either he/she will say "oh oops, good catch" or "nope." If it's the latter, I would continue assisting with the NPF duties so as not to get into an argument in such a critical phase of flight (we might be loud but are we going to crash? No.). Then at a later time I would bring up the fact I was concerned about the repricussions from disregarding the procedure. Remember CUS words: "I'm concerned with what is happening at the moment." No response? "I'm uncomfortable with what is happening at the moment." No response still? "I believe this is a safety issue and needs to be corrected immediately." However in this situation, it is a noise abatement requirement, not a DP avoiding mountains. If it were the latter, there would be more interest in ensuring proper following of the procedure. Like I said, if the flight is still being operating safely (although not following the procedure), it might cause more harm than good to start a major discussion about why the captain did not fly the procedure properly. BTW if this response makes no grammatical sense, sorry I'm exhausted!

November 11th, 2003, 21:37	#11
Kristie Big Chief's Woman Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Scottsdale, Arizona Posts: 18,206 Blog Entries: 3	Re: You\'re the FO: Captain and Noise Abatement I'd say "good for you man, the airport was here first - let the city council deal with the folks who bought there".. well, no might not be right answer - but i sure like it! hahaha

November 11th, 2003, 22:03	#12
kostcoguy Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Orange County Posts: 336	Re: You\'re the FO: Captain and Noise Abatement I would just mention it too him "Do you know about the noise abatement procedure here?" that would probably fix that pretty quick.

November 11th, 2003, 22:29	#13
flyguy Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 2,078	Re: You\'re the FO: Captain and Noise Abatement I'm with Kristie, they chose to live near the airport. But I guess their sh** don't stink either. Don't say anything to the captain and tell the snobs to move if they don't like it. Seriously though, the captain probably just overlooked the procedures, so I would politely remind him/her.

November 11th, 2003, 22:32	#14
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 40,566 Blog Entries: 1	Re: You\'re the FO: Captain and Noise Abatement Here's an example of a MD-90 noise abatement procedure for Orange County: http://jetcareers.com/acrobat/sna.pdf

November 12th, 2003, 06:21	#15
Snow Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 869	Re: You\'re the FO: Captain and Noise Abatement Um unless the aircraft was in any danger I wouldn't say anything, it's 'his' aircraft and if he messes up he's going to get the ass kicking for it.

November 12th, 2003, 06:29	#16
JEP Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Eden Prairie, MN (KFCM) (KMSP) Posts: 10,727 Blog Entries: 1	Re: You\'re the FO: Captain and Noise Abatement [ QUOTE ] Um unless the aircraft was in any danger I wouldn't say anything, it's 'his' aircraft and if he messes up he's going to get the ass kicking for it. [/ QUOTE ] I'll play devils advocate here....Suppose the Captain decides to have a drink while flying? The aircraft would probably not be in danger, but would you let that slide as well? Also, what if you are unlucky and fly with a few captains that decide to break the Noise Abatement procs. I would think that the powers that be would see who was the first officer and then wonder why didn't he/she speak up? I don't think I would question the captain right away, but I would question him for my own knowledge once in level cruise flight.

November 12th, 2003, 07:34	#17
naunga Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: McDonough, GA Posts: 981	Re: You\'re the FO: Captain and Noise Abatement First off, correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that in the eyes of the FAA noise abatment procedures are purely voluntary. If this is true then it comes down to what the company's policy is on them. If the company sides with the FAA, then I keep my mouth shut. I'm with Kristie, the airport was here first. If the company says (and it appears that they do) noise abatment procs are to be followed to the letter, then I'll probably just mention that hey you know you missed that procedure there? But that would be it, and I wouldn't press the issue with him. Maybe he just forgot. Maybe he didn't care. If he forgot, well then next time I may mention that there is a noise abatment procedure in effect before takeoff, just to be helpful. Hell, I'd probably do that even if he didn't care to fly it. At least I can say I reminded him of the procedure. Reprimands may come in two's, but the procedure was already busted. It's not like you can wrestle the controls away from him and do it right. You're screwed already. You're already off the ground and the procedure has already been missed. At least I'm on record reminding him of the procedure. That's what I'd do...from the safety of my computer screen. Naunga

November 12th, 2003, 08:14	#18
C650CPT Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Home Sweet Home! Posts: 957	Re: You\'re the FO: Captain and Noise Abatement It all goes back to the pre take off briefing, was the Noise Abatement procedure briefed and briefed back? If it was and that is what you were expecting the Cpt. to do and he didn't there is a larger issue of crew resource management or pilot performance issues that needs to be adressed, that is more of a safety issue than the noise abatement is. If it wasn't briefed then I would post flight critique that WE missed it and will include such procedures in future pre take off briefings. My situation stated on another thread was the latter, never briefed, we were in the go home mode.

November 12th, 2003, 09:46	#19
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 40,566 Blog Entries: 1	Re: You\'re the FO: Captain and Noise Abatement [ QUOTE ] Um unless the aircraft was in any danger I wouldn't say anything, it's 'his' aircraft and if he messes up he's going to get the ass kicking for it. [/ QUOTE ] Violations and all-expenses-paid trips to the chief pilot's office are issued in pairs.

November 12th, 2003, 09:50	#20
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 40,566 Blog Entries: 1	Re: You\'re the FO: Captain and Noise Abatement [ QUOTE ] First off, correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that in the eyes of the FAA noise abatment procedures are purely voluntary. [/ QUOTE ] Somewhat, however, airlines get charged hefty fees for setting-off the noise monitors. If your flight exceeded the maximum decibel level and you don't have a valid excuse for not following the procedure things could get very interesting.

November 12th, 2003, 10:00	#21
av8rmsu Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Pickwick Lake Posts: 448	Re: You\'re the FO: Captain and Noise Abatement [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] First off, correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that in the eyes of the FAA noise abatment procedures are purely voluntary. [/ QUOTE ] Somewhat, however, airlines get charged hefty fees for setting-off the noise monitors. If your flight exceeded the maximum decibel level and you don't have a valid excuse for not following the procedure things could get very interesting. [/ QUOTE ] what would be a valid excuse...other than emergencies or aircraft avoidance?

November 12th, 2003, 10:04	#22
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 40,566 Blog Entries: 1	Re: You\'re the FO: Captain and Noise Abatement [ QUOTE ] what would be a valid excuse...other than emergencies or aircraft avoidance? [/ QUOTE ] Usually in Orange County, we brief that if we lose an engine, have any abnormal indications or experience any control difficulties, all bets are off and we're going to resume the standard departure profile.

November 12th, 2003, 17:06	#23
ShoreFly Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: EWR Posts: 164	Re: You\'re the FO: Captain and Noise Abatement "Hey Capt, thanks for not doing the Noise Abatement Procedure, we would've hit those birds!" Always CYA when the cockpit voice recorder is running

November 12th, 2003, 17:20	#24
Doug Taylor Agent Smith Join Date: Dec 1969 Location: KSDL Posts: 40,566 Blog Entries: 1	Re: You\'re the FO: Captain and Noise Abatement [ QUOTE ] "Hey Capt, thanks for not doing the Noise Abatement Procedure, we would've hit those birds!" Always CYA when the cockpit voice recorder is running [/ QUOTE ] Apparently, there's a captain who jokingly says, "I dunno Sparky, this doesn't look good" to the CVR voice element.

November 13th, 2003, 14:26	#25
blee256 Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: lower canada Posts: 1,614	Re: You\'re the FO: Captain and Noise Abatement This is what I'ld say "its a good thing your flying, because I thought there was a noise abatement procedure here."

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